Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft

  • Am Vor Tag

    Folding IdeasFolding Ideas
    subscribers: 853 Tsd.

    You enter a bright new digital world, exited to explore and hyped just to enjoy the vibe. Ten months later you're yelling at someone for standing in fire. What changed?
    Produced by Dan Olson
    Written by Nathan Landel and Dan Olson
    Choice's channel - / choice_au
    Bibliography
    A Reports/Books/Articles
    Ask, Kristine, ‘The Value of Calculations: The Coproduction of Theorycraft and Player Practices’ (2016) 36(3) Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society 190.
    Boellstroff, Tom, Coming of Age in Second Life: An Anthropologist Explores the Virtually Human (Princeton University Press, 2008)
    Chen, Mark, ‘Leet Noobs: Expertise and Collaboration in a World of Warcraft Player Group as Distributed Sociomaterial Practice’ (PhD Thesis, University of Washington, 2010) [Not: College of Education].
    Consalvo, Mia, Cheating: Gaining Advantage in Videogames (MIT Press, 2007) 28.
    Egliston, Benjamin, ‘Play to Win: How competitive modes of play have influenced cultural practices in digital games’ (Honours Thesis, University of Sydney 2013) [Not: School of Art, Communication and English] 24.
    Genette, Gérard, Paratexts: Thresholds of Interpretation (Cambridge University Press, 1997).
    Glas, René, Battlefields of Negotiation: Control, Agency, and Ownership in World of Warcraft (Amsterdam University Press, 2013).
    Golub, Alex, ‘Being in the World (Of Warcraft): Raiding, Realism, and Knowledge Production in a Massively Multiplayer Online Game’ (2010) 83(1) Anthropological Quarterly 17.
    Iser, Wolfgang, The Fictive and the Imaginary: Charting Literary Anthropology (Johns Hopkins University Press, 1993)
    Lehdonvirta, Vili and Edward Castronova, Virtual Economies: Design and Analysis (The MIT Press, 2014).
    McArthur, Victoria et al, ‘Knowing, Not Doing: Modalities of Gameplay Expertise in World of Warcraft Addons’ in CHI ’12 Extended Abstracts on Human Factors in Computing Systems (ACM, 2012) 101.
    Prax, Patrick, ‘Co-Creative Interface Development in MMORPGs - the Case of World of Warcraft Add-Ons’ (2012) 4(1) Journal of Gaming & Virtual Worlds 3.
    Skare, Roswitha, ‘Paratext’ (2020) 47(6) Knowledge Organization 511.
    Skare, Roswitha, ‘The paratext of digital documents’ (2021) 77(2) Journal of Documentation 449.
    Steinkuehler, Constance, ‘The Mangle of Play’ (2006) 1(3) Games and Culture 199.
    Taylor, T.L, ‘Does WoW Change Everything?: How a PvP Server, Multinational Player Base, and Surveillance Mod Scene Caused Me Pause’ (2006) 1(4) Games and Culture 318.
    Taylor, T.L, ‘The Assemblage of Play’ (2009) 4(4) Games and Culture 331.
    Taylor, T.L, Play Between Worlds: Exploring Online Game Culture (MIT Press, 2006).
    B Other
    Crusader3455, ‘MIESTRO DOES A LEGIT 2v3 AT 2500 CR’ (DE-film, 30 August 2022)
    AzAMOus, ‘It’s 2922 and You Enter Utgarde Keep’ (DE-film, 29 September 2022)
    Mark Chen, ‘Mark Chen presenting Leet Noobs 10 years later’ (DE-film, 12 March 2021)
    www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-war...
    Crowdfunding: www.patreon.com/foldablehuman
    Twitter: FoldableHuman
    00:00:00 Preface
    00:01:28 Chapter 1 - Instrumental Play
    00:17:58 Chapter 2 - Paratext
    00:31:44 Chapter 3 - How Add-ons Ruined my Manchildhood
    00:40:50 Chapter 4 - Join a Guild, They Said
    00:56:45 Chapter 5 - WoW Classic, A Hellscape of Instrumental Practices
    01:12:03 Chapter 6 - Decomposing the World
    01:19:37 Conclusion

andromeda138 +2277
andromeda138

I relate to this so hard just playing Stardew with my family. One brother maximizes and optimizes absolutely everything, aiming to unlock things as soon as possible. Meanwhile our cousin just makes his character look like Luigi and walks around eating sap.

Vor 5 Monate
Molly +231
Molly

I mean, I know which person I'd rather play with 🤷‍♀️ cousin Luigi sounds like he's onto something

Vor 5 Monate
Bob +65
Bob

​@Molly yeah Im going with luigi as well

Vor 4 Monate
Cha0sCloud +55
Cha0sCloud

Your brother sounds like he has way too much time on his hands. Your cousin OTOH sounds like a true Stardew player. 👍

Vor 4 Monate
PointsofData +235
PointsofData

​@Cha0sCloud his brother sounds like he enjoys min maxing, and might enjoy speedrunning. Both of which are valid ways to have fun so long as you aren't shaming other people.

Vor 4 Monate
AssortedFern +65
AssortedFern

Your brother sounds like he'd REALLY enjoy Factorio

Vor 4 Monate
NikHem343 +1268
NikHem343

In Guild Wars 1 there was a tutorial world, which was a completely different instance from the main game to which you could not return to once leaving. To get the best armor in this tutorial - which was somewhat useful in the main game - you needed to farm x items from two different enemies. I’ve put 100+ hours into Guild Wars, 99% in the main game, but the best memory I have from all that time is when I created a character named „Tutorial Merchant“, farmed those two mob items and then sold it to other players for very little gold, gold that I had no use for, because I already had the best tutorial equipment. Whenever I sold out, I ran into the woods again, farmed, got back into town again and announced my goods to the travellers. Most people were really appreciative. Some were on their Xth character and just wanted to get the tutorial over with. Others were new players and I like to think I added just that much to their wondrous experience with my small nonsensical business. Great memory for me.

Vor 7 Monate
Alestrius +70
Alestrius

I remember having a vaguely related experience where I played GW1 for maybe, idk, 20-35 hours? Most of it in the tutorial because I wanted to do all the exclusive things there first before fully leaving since I didn't really intend to come back. I was really struggling to get some specific rare drop, I think it was just like a bag or something, and I spent like 3-4 hours trying to farm it. Then I mentioned that on the discord server at the time and some guy just came up and gifted it to me, and that guy's kindness making my day is genuinely the only memory I have of GW1.

Vor 5 Monate
R D +23
R D

In Runes of Magic, I used to farm the resources you needed for the lvl 10 and 20 special abilities. I had fun, farmed low lvl dailies items, and made good money. And, being a priest, buffed newbies with 400+ hp. Ah, memories… =)

Vor 5 Monate
Acridyd +45
Acridyd

When I was playing Elden Ring in 2022, I really wanted to create a new character named ¨Helpful Invader¨ then invade in the starting areas and genuinely help whomever I invaded. I wanted to lead that player through dungeons and point out threats for them. I wouldn´t have minded if they just outright killed me either. I really just wanted to help the community since there was so much anger about PVP and online play at the time.

Vor 5 Monate
Ise no Kami +26
Ise no Kami

Even as someone who doesn’t play MMOs, I’m inclined to call you a saint for providing that kind of service.

Vor 5 Monate
Alucard A La Carte +30
Alucard A La Carte

Something I loved about City of Heroes were the groups of high-level players who'd just sit in the spot where all new heroes spawned out of the tutorial and handed out free equipment and resources to anyone who'd clearly put a lot of work into their character/backstory.

Vor 5 Monate
John +765
John

That line “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game” is painfully relevant in MMO style games. I remember when Black Spindle came out in Destiny you couldn't get into raids without it. Almost every LFG group demanded you have Black Spindle with specific rolls or you'd be denied entry. Never mind the fact that the raids had been completed countless times before the weapon even existed. If it wasn't "optimal," it wasn't acceptable.

Vor 5 Monate
barkerbeans +36
barkerbeans

Not to mention the "Have Gjally or Kick" Posts lmao

Vor 4 Monate
Chris Lontz +51
Chris Lontz

Destiny is a good example of toxic optimization in gaming. Crucible is constantly being ruined by people playing ONLY to win.

Vor 4 Monate
Max Gustafsson +13
Max Gustafsson

Guild Wars 2 was horrible for this around launch (haven't played much since then.) Since no character is really built to be Tank or Healer, and everyone can heal themselves, the fastest strat was for everyone to be a DPS. I think about 50% of max-level dungeon group would ve "zerk only", meaning you HAD to have berzerker gear (+crit rate, +Crit Damage, +damage) it sucked. Hard.

Vor 3 Monate
Adrian Rodriguez +4
Adrian Rodriguez

Not to mention that LFR did more damage with specific perks too. Any sniper would have realistically worked tho

Vor 3 Monate
A New Hero121 +12
A New Hero121

A ridiculous ask even at the time, given that at that time, there were exactly 2 raids - Vault of Glass, the very first one, and the raid Black Spindle drops from, Crota’s End. There were no strategies for either raid that required Spindle - Crota was functionally the only boss in his raid and damage was done with rocket launchers, and Vault of Glass could certainly have been made easier by Spindle, but it was months old and plenty of strategies already worked in Vault lol

Vor 3 Monate
TwoCoats +2151
TwoCoats

My college friends and I still laugh about back in 2005 when a guy in our dorm kept looting during fights in wailing caverns. And he would actively deny it. Then during a fight the game lagged real hard and everyone was stuck moving around in whatever animation they were stuck in. Zach was stuck in the loot animation. He still denied it. 😂

Vor 8 Monate
UltiMaxKom +77
UltiMaxKom

Is that a pathological liar or did I just misunderstood the term?

Vor 7 Monate
JonintheRonin +120
JonintheRonin

@UltiMaxKom Yes some people literally cant help it and are massive pos lol

Vor 7 Monate
Marmascoot +7
Marmascoot

I remember this bug.

Vor 5 Monate
Wobbles And Bean +12
Wobbles And Bean

And that's when you kick him from the group and block him.

Vor 5 Monate
Termitreter +99
Termitreter

@UltiMaxKom Pathological liar means something pretty extreme, and someone that compulsively lies all the time. Dont think that thing in WoW is enough to make that deduction^^

Vor 5 Monate
Gunhaver +540
Gunhaver

one of my closest friends i've ever had played like that barefoot gnome at the start, only he refused to cave. i love that guy and he played the game HIS way until everyone else got tired of the game like 7 years in. he told me later it was because he hated Warcraft a lot, but loved spending time with us, so he made the game fun for himself. it made us all feel terrible because we never considered if he enjoyed the "correct" way of playing WoW

Vor 5 Monate
Shayne O'Neill +105
Shayne O'Neill

Reminds me of a guy in Eve Online who absolutely refused PVP or really any of the normal ways to play. He just sat around the main market regions and socialized. Eventually he got so trusted by everyone that he was the games go-to mediator for disputes, and trusted middle man for risky trades, and when one day someone managed to glitch a capital ship into a market system by mistake, he brought the capital ship off them knowing that the devs would delete the ship thus kinda screwing up the player. The devs ended up doing something unusual, let him keep the ship on the condition it was never used for pvp (In theory, though probably not in practice, a dreadnaught could defeat the concord npc space police, thus defeating the protections of hi-sec space. They would not have trusted any other player to keep the ship. And the entire player base was 100% down with this one off bending of rules.). So he spent his time in this giant dreadnaught mining newbie area rocks with battleship mining lasers (no such thing as capital ship mining lasers at that point of the game, though those came later) and resolving problems for people. Dude blazed his own trail and became beloved for it.

Vor 2 Monate
Sam Kim +38
Sam Kim

@Shayne O'Neill never heard of this guy, so i thought it would be difficult to find his name in such a massive game as eve online. but typing "eve online trusted player" immediately his name appeared 😂i guess there's not that many that have his level of reputation.

Vor 2 Monate
Los MacKenzie +19
Los MacKenzie

The man, the myth, the absolute legend, Chribba. God bless 'im.

Vor 2 Monate
Bryce +5
Bryce

reminds me of my experience with a lot of online games. I've always hated the obsession with improvement and skill and so on and so forth in online multiplayer games, so whenever I play with friends i just decide to run shitty meme strats and stuff so I have something to do while I'm hanging out w/ my friends. Works to a variable extent just how much more fun it is to play this way but I find it almost always more enjoyable than playing the game straight.

Vor Monat
Andreas Mann
Andreas Mann

@Shayne O'Neill That is fucking amazing. I miss EvE dearly and if I ever lose my entire social life I am comming back to it.

Vor 13 Tage
Lunar_Atronach +1084
Lunar_Atronach

This is why I love tf2 so much. Once a game is effectively dead everyone changes their focus onto emotional success rather than clinical success and I fucking love it.

Vor 8 Monate
theCerealKillr +165
theCerealKillr

this is actually a really interesting observation and explains why the ~500 people still playing Fallout 76 are having a blast doing it

Vor 6 Monate
R B +79
R B

Odd, I found Tf2 was the most fun when community servers were a thing and people were allowed to play with their same group of players, same mods, same 'free play' hijinks day in and day out for years on end.

Vor 6 Monate
Lunar_Atronach +58
Lunar_Atronach

@R B oh don't get me wrong that side of tf2 is also great if not common nowdays but as someone who joined tf2 in 2022 I find the dead game mindset wonderfull

Vor 6 Monate
etofok +11
etofok

true, it takes a mature look at a game to enjoy it for what it is, and not for there is to gain

Vor 5 Monate
weirdee +21
weirdee

@theCerealKillr yeah, there's not as much to do on the mechanical side so you're left with the base building and wacky gaps in the physics engine. thankfully the hacked stuff is getting less frequent now that they actually did something about it lol

Vor 5 Monate
Kyle B +8466
Kyle B

it's really cool that Dan has started making hours-long documentaries SPECIFICALLY for me, I appreciate that.

Vor 10 Monate
Queen Charlene +135
Queen Charlene

my two biggest interests in High School were Pink Floyd and World of Warcraft, so Dan's channel feels like targeted advertising 😂

Vor 9 Monate
Bryanna +137
Bryanna

on the opposite hand, i could not care less about warcraft but am somehow absolutely enthralled listening to him talk about it. either im easily amused or dan is really good at what he does

Vor 9 Monate
Milk Carton +36
Milk Carton

uh sorry they are for me, i can prove it because i subbed to his channel like a month before he did the NFT video. Coincidence? Suuuuuurre.

Vor 9 Monate
Kaitlyn Fischer +2
Kaitlyn Fischer

Oh I feel that

Vor 9 Monate
IstasPumaNevada +27
IstasPumaNevada

@Bryanna Any subject can be interesting if it's conveyed by a knowledgeable, engaged person in an entertaining and well-arranged way. I too could not care less about WoW (I tried it during a free weekend, stopped after about an hour, it's just not for me), but I find the evolution of rules/norms and subcultures very interesting. (Like, I never watch F1 racing because one or two drivers/teams being guaranteed to win the year due to an absolutely ridiculous monetary advantage is not entertaining, but I like watching videos discussing the ramifications of F1 rules changes.)

Vor 9 Monate
maegan castleton +66
maegan castleton

I played wow when I was little on the family computer. I played in what I called "single player mode" I turned off the chat box and I would spend hours exploring the maps, doing fetch quests for npcs, and selling pelts from low-level animals I killed. It was great! I didn't know what guilds were and I leveled up very slowly. WoW has some really cool areas to check out! The games pretty fun when you don't know what people are saying.

Vor 2 Monate
a a +1
a a

exactly how im playing my return to wow im not going to go past the free trial on any of my characters until theyre all lv20 and all im doing is questing in the starting areas one character per race. each has a different thematically logical subclass just finished my first, a female dreanei holy priest wow is by far at its best in the early game probably will stick to only classic content whenever possible

Vor 8 Tage
SD Ranch +1
SD Ranch

Basically the same thing I do now in dragon flight. It is super rare for me to say anything in chat, I rarely ever run dungeons, haven’t raided since Cataclysm. I quest, and farm mounts / pets. Level characters of each race and class just to have fun playing.

Vor Tag
maegan castleton
maegan castleton

@a a you got the right idea! Happy exploring friend

Vor Tag
maegan castleton
maegan castleton

@SD Ranch I'm so glad I'm not the only one who enjoys Single Player Mode. Get those pets/mounts in peace!

Vor Tag
Jeremy Patrick +225
Jeremy Patrick

I had a realization. In a recent philosophytube video, Abigail talks about the bias toward measurability and how this leads us to discount or even blinds us to possibilities that are hard to measure. This is almost the essence of the issue that Dan is talking about around the seven minute mark. Free play is inherently unmeasurable. How do you quantify how much fun a person is having?

Vor 6 Monate
Cameron +54
Cameron

Well, the obvious way is to add a fun meter to your UI that'll indicate it if your fun goes too low so you can optimize for it better.

Vor 5 Monate
DoctorBones +37
DoctorBones

@Cameron style meter in devil may cry

Vor 5 Monate
Cameron +13
Cameron

@DoctorBones You have a point.

Vor 5 Monate
BILE +9
BILE

That bias is why accountants are ruining the world. If something is difficult/impossible to measure it gets cut from products/services.

Vor Monat
Stinkybeans +1
Stinkybeans

Probably by playing with other people

Vor Monat
Liquid +421
Liquid

I think another aspect about paratext in WoW is that it's made WoW exceptionally hard for anyone to get into. It's decades of systems and hundreds of thousands of videos and guides built upon each other where each iteration makes the previous version entirely absolute. For example, I started WoW on Legion after my friend encouraged me to try it. In fact, it was my first MMO. And at the time, Legion had a level cap of 120 and when you make a new character it just throws you into the deep end. Suddenly, I had dozens of options on my rogue and none of them made sense. My only tutorial was on how to auto-attack. I tried to look at a guide but they all assumed you were familiar with the previous system in Warlords and you mostly just needed a refresher. And wherever I tried to turn to for advice... people just had a hard time explaining it because they've engaged with the system for a decade. It took months for anyone to even think of explaining keybindings to me, let alone proper rotations and raid load outs. This even happens in the same expansion. I had to quit at the beginning of Legion since I was moving and when I came back at the end of the expansion I had to tredge through so many old systems that I had to wonder what the point of any them was. Like I had to spend a good week getting mana for the Nightbournes before getting supplies for the Lightforge then getting materials for my Artifact weapons or spending gold on my Order Hall. I was just doing them because I had to. This also goes for the narrative too. Legion was the culmination of a lot of storylines in Legion and Legion refuses to really explain any of it. It was only after I played Warcraft 3 some 5 years later that any of it really made sense to me. Who was Varian? Sylvannas? Sargeras? Archimonde? The Burning Legion? WoW just assumes you know. And even if you don't know, WoW just assumes you'll find out eventually through the community. And the resources the community points you to are exasperating long videos by people like Nobbel who, imo, gets the story together but has a hard time contexualizing the importance of any it, at least compared to likes of Platinium WoW. It was even worse in Shadowlands where it felt like the story demanded you watch lore videos to understand anything happening.

Vor 8 Monate
EQOAnostalgia +64
EQOAnostalgia

This is part of the reason WoW is slowly bleeding out, and will continue to do so unless they somehow fix this mess and soft reboot the mechanics, and i mean core mechanics of raiding etc. It's just too much these days. Most people dip a toe in, see how insane it is, usually by looking at one image of weakaura's or whatever, and they nope out.

Vor 7 Monate
Maarten Kok +8
Maarten Kok

@EQOAnostalgia Exactly, therefore, my advice to Blizzard would be simple: don't fix WoW, end it. Then build a new MMO that can start anew, and allow new players to flood in again.

Vor 3 Monate
Thingaloo +2
Thingaloo

Your use of absolute instead of obsolete really messed with m y mind.

Vor 3 Monate
Vonriel +4
Vonriel

@Maarten Kok This is something I got pushback on once before when I said it, but I stand by it: Any MMORPG should stop at 3-4 expansions and reboot itself, offering bonuses to longtime players as well as those who have accomplished certain things. Once it's been ~10 years, accrued technical debt hogties the developers while accrued game mechanics make it oblique to get into. And as Cataclysm showed, players won't accept a complete restart on what they think the game should be like without bitching about it for literally decades after the fact, not to mention the low level of impact all that spent time had on their largest group of players, endgame grinders.

Vor 2 Monate
HenriqueRJchiki +1
HenriqueRJchiki

Sounds like a skill issue to me my man

Vor 19 Tage
BluenoteNinja +127
BluenoteNinja

1:17:53 "And with all of this established, we can finally say the quiet part out loud: players make world of warcraft look fucking ugly." GOD JESUS YES THANK YOU

Vor 6 Monate
BlueGaming +1
BlueGaming

just false though, a lot of pro wow players have insanely clean UIs

Vor 3 Monate
Ightman +15
Ightman

​@BlueGamingnot in that sense my dude

Vor 2 Monate
Holstatt
Holstatt

@BlueGaming WoW's soul looks like the most generic creep chris hansen talks to on to catch a predator. i think that's whatthey meant.

Vor 20 Tage
Invisi-Bull Exploration +309
Invisi-Bull Exploration

I remember when I specced endless rage on my warrior even though 'the math was bad' as far as using up a talent point on something that on paper didn't pay off for the cost. Thing is, I was using it to make other players panic and make mistakes with all that coming down on them. It wasn't anything you could point to on a spread sheet, it was a psychological terror tactic. I was eventually justified learning that some Korean arena players certainly DID spec ER for the same purpose.

Vor 8 Monate
burnin8able +132
burnin8able

I may not have ever played WOW, but what you're describing here sounds a whole lot like a situation that comes up every once in a while in competitive fighting games. that situation being that a player will choose to play with a character or methodology that has been established as "low tier" or otherwise not tournament viable with the explicit intention of exploiting that exact establishment. Competitors don't see X character as viable, and as a result don't care about learning the intricacies of their matchup, and as a result, are caught off guard when they go up against a player using said character.

Vor 8 Monate
zizzlefax +44
zizzlefax

@burnin8able so pretty much being unable to counter a character or strategy because it's off meta?

Vor 7 Monate
burnin8able +42
burnin8able

@zizzlefax yeah pretty much. in fighting games "off meta" basically is just all the characters that don't get played often at a high level, so when they do see the spotlight few players know the matchups.

Vor 7 Monate
nathan parmentier +77
nathan parmentier

Another case of "the math is bad" in a very different context : While leveling a character through dungeons, a rogue specifically, there was that one time our tank died to a boss that we hadn't even downed halfway through. One of the DPS players told us to stop fighting and just die so we could get our tank back quicker and start over. But I, another DPS, turned out to deal high enough damage to consistenly keep the boss' aggro, and was mobile enough to keep the boss moving without it constantly dealing damage to me. The healer was able to keep me alive and, finally, we downed the boss with me, the rogue, as a "tank" for most of the fight. Rogue tanks are not a build that exists ; a rogue shouldn't be tanking a boss, it's not effective, and so on... but we pulled it off. And it was **really fun**.

Vor 7 Monate
Mirrored🔺 +3365
Mirrored🔺

As the original author of WeakAuras, I never expected it to become such a pervasive (and perhaps controversial) piece of paratext in relation to WoW.

Vor 9 Monate
ChRoNiC717 +244
ChRoNiC717

It's really interesting to encounter someone whose original work went far beyond their initial expectations for the mod. I remember downloading WeakAuras back when I played WoW in WotLK (the first and only expansion I played), when it was part of a suite of mods that would help in raiding and it really did help! The work you did there was absolutely appreciated by not only myself, but I'm sure everyone else who used that mod. I am curious about your history with it, as well as your viewpoints on the material covered in the video as someone who is tangentially involved in the whole thing.

Vor 9 Monate
Mirrored🔺 +338
Mirrored🔺

@ChRoNiC717  Well, for one, I think I'm firmly on the side of enjoying addons and how they evolved alongside raid encounter design in WoW. But that's inherently related to two factors that the video covers: 1) I'm one of the people who enjoys the hierarchical stratification produced by modern end-game raids, and 2) I'm a software developer, so the actual act of creating software solutions to raid mechanics (or seeing other people create them) is both interesting and accessible to me. And then, to downplay my contribution a bit: WeakAuras was the second major addon I developed, the first being a very complex and niche addon for coordinating assignments on the Lich King. A fight-specific addon. WeakAuras is very popular because of its great flexibility, but that flexibility is mostly just a thin translation layer that provides convenient access to Blizzard's underlying tools for addon development. The point is, WeakAuras doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't do anyway with fight-specific addons. And honestly, the way it is used nowadays - with prominent streamers and raiders releasing comprehensive class and raid "packs", which become well-known and proliferate across the playerbase - it is almost indistinguishable from what addons are supposed to be in the first place! If WeakAuras didn't exist, I think a lot of the exact same things would be done through custom addons. They would just be slightly more difficult to share around. So I guess my thought is that I'm honored and bemused to have had an opportunity to affect so many WoW players, and to have made a concrete contribution to a years-long push and pull in game design that has inspired books and video essays like this one. But in the grand scheme of things this tension - the tension between addon-lovers and no-addon purists, the tension between structured and unstructured play - seems inevitable to me.

Vor 9 Monate
ChRoNiC717 +53
ChRoNiC717

@Mirrored🔺 Thanks a lot for your viewpoint, it's quite illuminating and is interesting by dint of being quite unique as someone who developed add-ons - as opposed to being a developer of the game or simply a player.

Vor 9 Monate
Nihzit +37
Nihzit

WA is one of the main reasons i'm always coming back to WoW. I really love to have my UI, the way i want it and the way i can read it the best. To me and many players it's already a part of the game, next to raids and dungeons :D The best part was a friend of mine who wanted to start progressing in WoW and he was like "WAs? nah not my thing..." a few weeks later: "i need a WA for this, oh and i want this to be displayed, and i need to change this other WA. I reworked my entire UI, it's so much fun!"

Vor 9 Monate
Cody Coy +8
Cody Coy

I never really used weak auras and had quit the game by the time they became necessary. What was the original intention of weak auras?

Vor 9 Monate
Hawoo Awooo +99
Hawoo Awooo

As a FF14 player this was a really fascinating look at just how different the values are between the different communities. I think the screenshot part is perhaps the most direct contrast to make. In WoW it was a source of considerable backlash to limit the maximum zoom out. In FF14 the last "world first" race was marred by controversy when someone leaked footage of a top team using a zoom out mod, an act that apparently drew condemnation even from the mod creator them self. For context one of the main uses for the mod from the community was to help with taking screenshots. Beyond that the idea of using mods to tell you how to do a fight or even turning off the music (one of the best parts of of a fight) are so foreign to me as a FF14 player and so antithetical to the values this community has developed as to appear dystopian.

Vor 5 Monate
Boom +6
Boom

Well, at least to the casual FF14 community. WoW is at least blessed with a limited addon API that isn't allowed to do certain things. Because ff14 mods are actual hacks on the game, there is 0 limits on what assistance addons are made, and we are seeing this appear in droves. The same rot will consume ff14 if there is not a big rebellion from the players and a serious crackdown from the devs. But this dev crackdown can easily kill the enourmous social community that has developed through Penumbra and Mare... which could death spiral the game. It's a tricky situation and yeah the future of 14 looks rocky at best as these problems get worse and worse.

Vor 4 Monate
BitwiseMobile +12
BitwiseMobile

@Boom Game mods can be detected. They really don't care much unless you are botting for profit - RMT. Things like Bard Player actually kind of add to the ambiance of the game. If you know the philosophy of the designer you would realize that is what he wants Yoshi P wanted a social game more than a PvP or PvE game. Those parts were secondary to his goal of creating a social game. Bard Player adds to that by encouraging player to player interaction in a positive manner. That was Yoshi P's dream - positive player to player interaction. That's why PvP is really secondary to the game - it's almost a mini-game within the game. Also, 14 has been out WAY longer than people realize, so it's not like it's a new problem. It hasn't brought down the player base yet. It might encourage Wow players to stay away, and I'm 100% okay with that.

Vor 4 Monate
Rizzo RIZZO +1
Rizzo RIZZO

There is quite a bit of end game content in wow, particularly as the expansions started coming, in which playing without certain addons made it virtually impossible to clear some of the more difficult raids. The number of things you have to simultaneously pay attention to would require professional StarCraft player like reflexes and focus and the vast majority of the population just ain’t got it. I never played FF14 so I can’t relate on how necessary addons are for that game.

Vor 3 Monate
Cube2000
Cube2000

I think the biggest problem with add-ons in FFXIV is that only one platform, PC, will ever get to benefit from it. I assume that’s a big reason why the devs heavily frown upon using them: if these mods take off and become integrated into future strategies for future raid encounters, PS4/PS5 players would be out of luck if PUG strategies require the use of said mods.

Vor 2 Monate
Mitchell Tague +1
Mitchell Tague

@Rizzo RIZZO Former WoW raider, current FFXIV raider. Mods/add-ons/plugins are FAR less necessary than in WoW. Fights are far more scripted, with "needing to be in one of a set of specific positions that changes each time" almost always designated by a limit cut (numbers above your head in game). I use exactly one add-on for any level of combat help, and it's a mouseover action add-on I use because WoW healing ruined me and trying to switch between targets while healing sounds like hell.

Vor 28 Tage
Little Bird +291
Little Bird

This really hit me hard as a disabled gamer. I always feel like I can't really join any kind of game related community because so much are focused on optimizing everything, and my body just can't keep up. No matter how many videos I watch I'll never be as optimal as an able bodied player who doesn't struggle to use a keyboard. If I join a guild that wants to focus on being the best then I'll always hold them back. It's really depressing because that's also how I tend to get treated for my disability anyway. I can't even escape being judged for my physical ability in a completely virtual environment. It's really awful how isolating it is. I really just wish there were more spaces where I wasn't judged on my abilities in some way.

Vor 4 Monate
Chubo Kuway +20
Chubo Kuway

You kick ass no matter what. I wish you the best

Vor 2 Monate
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz +38
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz

My experience with gaming communities is that they always, always replicate the worst aspects of our society while suppressing the good ones. Every form of intolerance you can think up, they're eager to practice it. They relish in their obsession with numbers, competition and prestige. They insult you for performing poorly, for playing certain ways, for being a certain way. Honestly, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to be in a game community of their own volition. The real world might be harsh, but at least it has laws, various types of ice cream, and people discussing how to make things more tolerable, not less.

Vor 2 Monate
Chubo Kuway +3
Chubo Kuway

@Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz Fr fr spittin' straight fax

Vor 2 Monate
Mirai Hi +3
Mirai Hi

On the other hand, most gamers that don't have any serious health problems lack the time to devote to such guild.

Vor 2 Monate
jb1 +8
jb1

Amazing reflection. Thank you for sharing that!! It's a bit counter-intuitive how isolating games like WoW can be, it being a social game and all. Someone else mentioned the game brings out social extremes and I agree completely. There is such a strong hierarchy and sense of power elicited by the game that so many players (myself included) are very drawn to, "to fit in", and I think it's why a lot of people can be so intolerant. When you bring someone down, you lift yourself up. There is no stronger motivation than feeling socially cohesive within "the group".

Vor 2 Monate
Sour Hour +73
Sour Hour

A lot of this simply goes over my head, but what I did get out of it heavily reminded me of a similar issue in the Old School Runescape "Community". By all means OSRS is vastly more optimized than Warcraft. The way the game is designed with "ticks" in mind, where things can only happen so fast, means that aside from luck factors it is very possible to "perfect" many bosses. They are designed around this, of course... but it leaves behind the player who doesn't want to do that. Add-Ons (In the form of Runelite Plugins) are just as omnipresent. The best example I can immediately think of is the Snake-God Boss Zulrah. The attack patterns are always the same, following one of a set number of routes. Stand on the perfect tile, don't be really slow with changing your damage-protecting prayers and gear, and the boss is solved. It takes some learning, but once you learn it, it's trivial. That's about every boss in the game. Even the newest raids are done deals by now. They take mechanical skill, endurance and timing, but very little thinking. Way back in the day (I wasn't around for it, but everyone that was seems to agree on this) the game was all about exploration. Learning, finding new things, new methods. But now it's discouraged. If you as a player come up with a method to doing something that you prefer but is not the "Expert Practice", you're going to be a laughing stock. Outside of the three raids and a small handful of basically dead minigames, there is little to no teamplay needed, so you're not going to be insulted for dragging everyone down with you. A "Wallace" would get bullied out of the game once people are tired of gawking at the noob like some kind of zoo animal. When I first started playing, I quickly stumbled on the Halberd weapon type. Slow, bad DPS, Two-Handed (meaning no offhand item to boost stats)... but it has the unique quirk to be able to attack from two tiles away instead of one. For enemies with only melee attacks, if you can get them stuck on something, it means you can farm them for free, forever, no healing or prayer required. I used this strategy to farm Moss Giants, an enemy most people may kill one or two quest's worth then swiftly proceed to ignore forever unless they're trying to get the unique drops from a Moss Giant Boss (which nobody cares for either). The loot was good for a new player starting out, their Big Bones gave consistent Prayer Exp, and it allowed a free and afk method to train melee stats. Sharing this method with some parts of the community in casual conversation, I was treated like Wallace or dismissed as someone actively trolling.

Vor 8 Monate
Saibellus +10
Saibellus

as someone who has literally never played osrs the "smart" way, i always had fun bumbling around doing nonsense. maybe thats why i find the mechanical perfection of bosses cool instead of boring - even if there is a flawless system, its really hard to put into practice. and i always admired the way really dedicated players could use the existence of ticks and quirks of item interactions to do crazy things, like the famed lvl 3 fire cape tag team.

Vor 3 Monate
51gunner +9
51gunner

As someone who has played both WoW (vanilla and TBC) and Old School Runescape (currently) the parallels are definitely there. I played through the Tombs of Amascut release and yeah... what was initially fun and unique got "solved" by the community almost immediately. I had fun solving the puzzles on the way to Kephri and learning how they worked, but the "expert" practice was that once how they worked was figured out, a Runelite plugin was created and then the expected way to solve it is just Do What Runelite Tells You To. To do anything else is just seen as wasting the team's time. The older raid Chambers of Xeric has long, LONG been optimized past the point of reason and I despise it. Chambers is easy for the most part. Half the 'puzzles' are just to do the same thing over and over, and so are many of the combat encounters. Over time though, players have developed optimal orders for what bosses you fight and how, and they WILL stand outside the raid resetting over and over until they get one of the 'ideal' layouts. This is in turn facilitated by Jagex (the game's developers) never having rebalanced anything or having cared to file off most of the snags. People avoid Vasa because he's a bunch of unavoidable damage and doesn't drop anything that saves time later, and they avoid Vespula for much the same reason. They tolerate Muttadiles because the "screw you, you take damage now" hits through any defenses are compensated for by dropping two overload potions... the crafting of which takes a frustrating amount of time. There's so much cruft all over the Chambers that shows how Jagex either didn't know or didn't care that most of this would never get used. Nobody catches the fish by fishing or the bats with hunter, nobody makes the antipoisons, and nobody makes the non-overload potions for any reason other than to craft an overload potion. The thing is, Chambers is EASY. People could be doing it long, long before the community's accepted "minimum" gear setups. They can also get it done without a lot of the community's accepted techniques for fighting the last boss, but god help you if you're a newbie and don't know how to "run the head". The average raider will be very displeased if they take a hit because your click was slow. They'll also get crabby if you accidentally make a small error that prevents them from doing some of the last-phase 'skips' even though the boss is very, very doable without any of those. Because OSRS is MOSTLY a solo game too, it's a very very jarring transition into raiding as a group.

Vor 3 Monate
Sour Hour +1
Sour Hour

@51gunner I learned TOA just a few days ago using a "Noob's Guide" video. I cannot recommend that guy more, you'll find him immediately if you use that keyword. He doesn't go too deep into mechanics, doesn't focus on optimal play, lets you know it's okay to have terrible gear when it is indeed okay, and lets you figure things out without leaving you hanging. I was nearly able to complete a run on my second attempt, without any plugin nonsense, and my first run only died because Kephri is a piece of work! I did fail my second run too, because I got overwhelmed by the final dude and didn't feel like restarting. But I count it as "having learned". Now that I've had that fun of discovery I am probably going to install a plugin, since when I am grinding for drops from it I do want to minimize the thinking and focus on gameplay challenge. TOA is just GOOD.

Vor 3 Monate
JMcAfreak +1
JMcAfreak

Yeah it's the one thing I hate about OSRS. I play what's fun. I don't actively seek out the most efficient way to do things, nor will I ever. I have some goals I intend to meet (Quest cape, achievement diaries, experiencing most, if not all of the bosses), and I'll meet them eventually, but if I'm not having fun while meeting them, then what even was the purpose? People flame me for being a "low" total level (I'm ~1300 total level), as if not optimizing every drop of experience out of my time in the game is somehow bad, and means I should have less of a say in what happens to the game as a whole. The game lives on community polls, where anyone over a total level of 500, and a certain number of hours, can vote, and any vote over 70% passes. This gives an easy enough bar to meet to vote in the polls if it's something that you want to do, while also ensuring that only people who are serious about playing the game will vote. There are legitimately people in that community who think the polls should be barred to anyone below a total level of 1500, because "you're not actually serious about the game until you have a total level of 1500" (which takes HUNDREDS OF HOURS, by the way, and that's at peak efficiency). They've gotten into a strange mindset that spending 50 hours in a game isn't serious enough. Not even 100 hours in a game is serious enough. Rather, you must spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours, doing only the maximum efficiency things, or else you are just a casual who could quit the game at any moment, despite having sunk hundreds of hours into the game SUB-optimally. I've literally been stereotyped as the kind of person who would demand that a quest requirement be lowered so I don't have to grind for it. But I would never do that, nor would most other players, even those who play inefficiently or who voted for the Sailing skill. I'll grind out those levels when I get to them. And I'll do it sub-optimally. Like, ffs, my non-optimal play is not affecting other players. Even when I start doing raids, I'll do them with friends who don't care about doing the optimal strat, and instead just want to have fun doing raids. But everything must be optimal, and people playing sub-optimally shouldn't be allowed to even vote, according to some of the community.

Vor 12 Tage
Sour Hour +1
Sour Hour

@JMcAfreak Dehumanizing "the others" is a great way for broken people to feel better about themselves, and taking away their literal right to vote is pretty much the first step in marginalizing a group. I feel ya. I've found a great group of people to do a Group Ironman with since writing the initial comment, and it's done wonders for my enthusiasm about the game.

Vor 12 Tage
unskilled_ +199
unskilled_

The older we get, the more our expectations in what is "fun" changes. As a kid everything is fun because everything is new. When you get older, the "fun" is more rigid and defined because while you had fun all the time as a kid, it is those peaks of pure bliss that define the endless chase of trying to find it again when your older. And sadly for alot of us, we're chasing something that only happened once in our lifetimes.

Vor 7 Monate
Termitreter +27
Termitreter

Tbh, maybe im ignorant, but that kinda sounds like a midlifecrisis or so? The time as a child will never come back, but youre still looking at it with nostalgia, and theres still many things to learn, explore or enjoy as an adult. The only mistake is to assume there isnt anything left, because that is limiting yourself in finding new things.

Vor 5 Monate
RinsDesk +12
RinsDesk

Yeah, no. I don't agree. Not everyone had a "fun" childhood. Some of us grew up in abusive homes and have a lot more "fun" as adults.

Vor 5 Monate
Moth +14
Moth

​@RinsDesk It was a general statement, exceptions don't defeat the idea.

Vor 5 Monate
RinsDesk +5
RinsDesk

@Moth yes, it does.

Vor 5 Monate
Moth +13
Moth

@RinsDesk Not everyone has your experience. The majority of people do relate to the above comment. Personally, most of my childhood was marked by sadness and anxiety, but I can still relate to the above comment in that I did still have a far more curious mind that found joy in simpler things.

Vor 5 Monate
Civil Chev +184
Civil Chev

The story about the healers trinket really upsets me. People need to realize that the META isn't JUST about the gear. Every time someone tries to argue that I'm not playing at maximum capacity I throw the argument back to them, "Are you? You're playing a minmax'd build but are you actually playing the proper playstyle to match said build?" Most of the time they don't know what I'm even talking about. It's fine to want to follow the META but these people should take a minute to figure out WHY the META is the way it is. There's no point using a META that maximizes your damage only when your teammates are playing precisely the same as you if you can, instead, use a build that increases your own DPS more consistently regardless of what your teammates are doing. It's obvious people just echo what they hear and don't have enough game knowledge to understand why they are wrong. For example FFXIV has low Piety builds for healers (Piety affecting how much mana you gain back per sever tick) for optimized speed kill situations. People should NOT be using this build in anything BUT optimized parties despite the fact it is the highest potential damage possible for the patch (In a game where healers are required to do damage). Instead it's better to have just enough Piety to be slightly positive when doing your rotation so that when you need to rez people you can slowly get back to having positive mana per minute.

Vor 8 Monate
Chronos +18
Chronos

This is much more important than I think people really understand. Meta is so reliant on everyone doing the exact same things with the exact same strategies. If you can do it? Awesome. But most people can't, and I also can't rely on a random to do that stuff for me under a majority of circumstances. Meta is just silly sometimes, and that thing about the trinket is very goofy.

Vor 4 Monate
crossdaboss8 +8
crossdaboss8

This is beyond true meta in any game requires you to play a specific way or is only the meta for a specific style of content and somtimes a off meta strategy is better in less optimized environments

Vor 4 Monate
FERRIS WHEEL +2737
FERRIS WHEEL

i’ve always described my aversion to multiplayer team games as “i was bad at sports in middle school and got yelled at by my teammates for it, and i don’t have a strong desire to relive it”. all that to say that this video is so real to my experience not just with WoW but multiplayer team games as a whole.

Vor 9 Monate
Achi1187 +149
Achi1187

I was about to say haha. I played WoW casually with close friends mostly so I was lucky not to deal with too much of this, but this is like PTSD for my league of legends days

Vor 9 Monate
Lemonade +113
Lemonade

I tried playing League of Legends. Played a few games against bots, tried my first multiplayer match, got badly insulted and uninstalled the game.

Vor 9 Monate
banjiepixel +73
banjiepixel

I would assume that competitive WoW players are much less likely to play other competitive games where they are not part of a team or are playing directly against human opponents. Or games where progress as a player is less clearly defined in numbers. Team games have bad habit attracting players that can't handle losing too well and makes it easy to bully lower level players. Also team gives easier route to victory as your personal playing skill matters less if you have a very good team. Players who do not like playing against human opponents often do not like how unpredictable they can be. This type of player often prefers to learn single strategy that will work every time with minimal variation. Commonly also people that are not very good at handling losing and this is made worse by the opponent being a human. RPG games attract players that care more about stats and how much you can sink time into the game than other gameplay features. Numbers and time spent gives easy set of visible signs of progress within the game. You make progress more because how much you play and game rewards you from it instead of your progress being more direct result of your playing skills increasing. This means usually that the player values more stat numbers and how much time it took to reach those numbers than less visible skill improvement. This leads to being more likely to take shortcuts that require less skill and give better results, bigger numbers and ability to gain them faster. It is no wonder competitive WoW players are so toxic, they are some least compatible people with actual fair competitive play in good spirit. And explains why competitive play causes so severe problems in MMORPG communities in general.

Vor 9 Monate
STOCKHOLM +9
STOCKHOLM

I totally feel that. Every now and then I dive into MWO or this WWI multiplayer game (the 4 person survival mode) and everyone is almost always super nice.

Vor 9 Monate
Veritas Absoluta +6
Veritas Absoluta

@Gregory Ford You have to grow up and learn to accept those things. Not just run away

Vor 9 Monate
Raniphae +237
Raniphae

"Worlds become real when we care about them, not when they look similar to our own." That's a line that's going to stick with me for years to come. Thank you for this fantastic analysis; I really value the clear love you have for the game despite and sometimes even BECAUSE of all the messiness of optimization it pushes us to. I think there's genuinely a lot of value in WoW's community, but it's crucial to take a step back and identify when the numbers get warped into being an end in and of themselves, rather than a tool along the way.

Vor 7 Monate
Grivehn +5
Grivehn

I only saw this months later, but it is going to be a quote sticking with me as well. Just beautifully put.

Vor 4 Monate
lubu920 +6
lubu920

I swear, the 'metaverse' came to mind, as an world that isn't "real" for most people because only advertisers and megacorps care about it.

Vor 4 Monate
𒈜 fel +216
𒈜 fel

I remember being screamed at by my group as a little girl because my level 10 draenei shaman ran out of mana 😭 i never played healer again. wow elitists are scary

Vor 7 Monate
itisyerdad +208
itisyerdad

Gaming culture really creates such incredible toxicity for something that's supposed to be fun.

Vor 8 Monate
HenriqueRJchiki +2
HenriqueRJchiki

Sounds like a skill issue. Put effort and you won't be flamed.

Vor 19 Tage
Fou Lou +2
Fou Lou

@HenriqueRJchiki Thats Exactly the kind of Behavior hes talking about. XD

Vor 15 Tage
HenriqueRJchiki
HenriqueRJchiki

@Fou Lou I mean, still a skill issue.

Vor 15 Tage
Rifky809
Rifky809

​@HenriqueRJchikieven if you are skilled, some will still yell at you because of their own skill issue.

Vor 13 Tage
SioxerNikita +26
SioxerNikita

The interesting problem here is not people that optimize the game. The problem is when it becomes part of the Zeitgeist, and is then enforced on the players through shame, yelling, etc.

Vor 3 Monate
Tg S +4
Tg S

The bigger problem is the developers making content (specifically raid content) around the assumption that certain mods will be used. This is what happened with WoW. In order to increase the difficulty of raids and dungeons they had to increase the complexity of the encounters. There’s so much going on that if you don’t use threat meters, DBM, WeakAuras, Clique, or any number of other mods, it’s nearly impossible for a raid to coordinate everything that’s going on or for players to be able to react quickly enough. And to think, it all started with keyboard turning vs mouse look.

Vor 14 Tage
SioxerNikita +1
SioxerNikita

​@Tg SWell, one problem with your hypothesis, the elitism started before they did that. So that isn't "the bigger problem", especially since all of that content was possible to beat without certain mods, and was regularly, outside of specific raids, as some raids were not meant for PUG play regardless. The elitism was even building BEFORE item lvl addons, but it became far worse after that. Especially because you could have lesser item lvl, but more optimized stats, etc. and item lvl doesn't actually tell you how good a player is, which also affects DPS quite significantly (even if it is just a basic rotation, stupidly enough). Anyway, elitism didn't build from content design, it was quite literally built from people being able to inspect, and even worse, get a direct "single stat" to judge players on. As the knowledge of the game improves, people can get snobby even having the knowledge. This is a trap that essentially EVERY game runs into.

Vor 14 Tage
Amoriendi +79
Amoriendi

This has unlocked ancient memories. Our guild/raid leader would run Molten Core in first-person mode, we'd laugh and ask how he could see anything happening, but didn't get mad at him. Kind of wild in hindsight.

Vor 9 Monate
Tamlinearthly +1792
Tamlinearthly

Feels relevant: Countless years ago, in the earliest days of Vanilla WoW, I'm just poking around somewhat aimlessly killing Troggs for a quest that was taking just forever, and some wandering Warrior I don't know suggests we party up and kill them faster. All well and good, but then he tells me, "You take Aggro." So I ask him, "What's Aggro mean?" I had never heard the word before--never played an MMO before, in fact. He was totally incredulous, but after some prodding he explained the meaning of the term and why it made sense for me to do it, which it did; we killed some bad guys, finished out the quest, and all was well. Or so I thought. Literally YEARS later there's a thread on Blizzard's WoW forum asking what's the worst party you've ever been in in the game, and sure enough, some Warrior stops long enough to pipe in, "Oh man, I met a Paladin once who didn't even know what Aggro was." They're going to carve this on my tombstone, just you wait and see.

Vor 9 Monate
Michael Chui +301
Michael Chui

At least it sounds like he was patient with you in the moment. That's worth a lot.

Vor 9 Monate
First Last +401
First Last

oh gosh, that reminds me of the first time i tried playing a healer, and in ragefire chasm people were yelling at me about not using bubble, and i had no idea what they were talking about because i didn't have a spell called "bubble".

Vor 9 Monate
Alex .T +573
Alex .T

I hate that someone even considers that worthy of putting in such a thread. "New player doesn't know how to play" shouldn't come off as a significant affront to anyone.

Vor 9 Monate
DuckReconMajor +60
DuckReconMajor

I knew nothing of dungeons or anything when I got randomly invited to deadmines as a fire mage. I had no idea what i was doing so i just started blasting. thankfully after making a mess the party was patient with me and explained aggro to me

Vor 9 Monate
Naoto Shirogane +292
Naoto Shirogane

I have never been one for multiplayer games because of the fear of interaction, doing bad and/or dragging other players down. But I did play LoL with my ex and after getting absolutely reamed in the chat for being a sub-par healer I never played the vanilla game again and just stayed in the other game modes. These are meant to be games I enjoy in my spare time, not an unpaid second job where I get yelled at by some random. It was a normal match too, not even ranked. Not to mention how you get treated if people find out you're a girl, I'm a transguy and my voices passes but I am forever scarred from voice chat.

Vor 9 Monate
Tony Ibberson +55
Tony Ibberson

The example with Moistrainbow and how the social perception of effort mattered so much more than the outcome, is all too potent. Anyone who played the brown class during classic knew their best in slot chest piece was Savage Gladiators Chain; an item that is dropped from a single boss in an event that somewhere around 5 different bosses were possible, and still only had about a 15% drop if you were to actually get THAT boss. As far as cost-benefit, this item is about as far down the ladder as it gets, especially when in a guild of progression characters trying to gear up mains to push progressing on the server. I spent my days, as a progression guild's officer, gearing other mains in whatever dungeon they needed. Getting three upgrades for the guild by tanking Scholo in an hour was a FAR better use of my time than taking myself and my priest friend and spending HOURS, potentially days worth of time to farm this single item. This mentality, however, made me a pariah amongst the top-tier warriors on the server, and in classic as a whole. To the point where I lost my spot as second for T-Fury(a weapon that warriors use until the upmost end of classic) to a newer member, non-officer, based on my perceived lack of effort to maximizing my personal output. The perception around a single item, such as SGC, became a non-starter as to whether you were capable of playing the warrior class at a high level. Regardless of my contributions in other ways, this single item(and not flasking during non-speed clear farm content) labeled me as a 'non-hardcore' player.

Vor 8 Monate
Timothy McLean
Timothy McLean

So what I'm hearing is that grinding the same event dozens of times until you got marginally better armor for _your own character_ was considered a truer mark of helping the guild than making sure other characters could get good gear. I guess that's easier to quantify, but it doesn't sound like anyone _tried_ to measure any effort which doesn't increase your personal DPS.

Vor 2 Monate
Some Random Guy +96
Some Random Guy

Since I quit WoW a decade ago, I often dreamed of going back and reliving those cherished memories. This video saves me from that mistake. If I were to see it in its current form, it would likely kill those memories. loved the video, thanks.

Vor 5 Monate
Vonriel +5
Vonriel

As someone who went back to the game at the end of 2022, it did to me, and probably would to you. The game is an isolating experience today. You either have a guild, or you're one of the unwashed masses that nobody wants to touch. I played for a month and couldn't tell you anything about my time in retail beyond 'the talent rework was kinda neat', while classic was a mess of people demanding I be optimized so they could get their umpteenth alt to max level 2% faster than otherwise.

Vor 2 Monate
Morello +13
Morello

Long time game designer here - great video and talking about the qualities of instrumental play, entropy of optimization, and the inevitability of human nature. WoW is such a fantastic example as it spans the ages of understanding - web 1.0 all the way to integrated social connectedness with the internet. It's fascinating to watch a game hatched in one world navigate another, and it makes World of Warcraft a case study that tells unique lessons.

Vor 5 Monate
Ulysse +111
Ulysse

I forgot the name of your channel and was trying at some point to find it back by searching phrases like "angry man critics suicide squad editing while drinking booze" with no success. I am so happy that the algorithm brought you to me once again with an astounding work about my favorite game. cheers

Vor 7 Monate
SightNinja +17
SightNinja

This has to be one of the funniest comments I’ve ever read on this website.

Vor 5 Monate
NoEsUnYoutuber +26
NoEsUnYoutuber

Of course you couldn't find the video searching that - he was pretending to drink _cough syrup,_ not alcohol.

Vor 5 Monate
traketso +21
traketso

Dan's good, he's got me watching an hour long video essay about a game I've never played.

Vor 8 Monate
TheSoupin8or
TheSoupin8or

Right up there with hbomberguy lol

Vor 3 Monate
AverageDrafter +935
AverageDrafter

In Mario Kart, while I was hugging curves and defending my lead my son decided to ram his kart in front of a stage full of Koompas dancing, throw down the controller, jump up, shake his ass shouting "Woo Hoo! Yeah! Let's Party!". I've never been more pwnd in my whole life. Not only was I playing THIS game incorrectly, I was playing EVERY game incorrectly. GG son.

Vor 9 Monate
HarbingerOfDuh +37
HarbingerOfDuh

Wholesome content right here, +1,000,000

Vor 9 Monate
Ketsuban Solo
Ketsuban Solo

@AStealthyMarmot as long as you're not grieving ofc

Vor 9 Monate
Rico Sanchez +40
Rico Sanchez

LMAO damn, you won the race but your son beat the game. absolutely amazing

Vor 9 Monate
WhiteMoose +2
WhiteMoose

Ill take an exaggerated and possibly made up story for 500 Regis

Vor 9 Monate
suha +58
suha

@WhiteMoose literally what about this story is in any way exceptional or unusual

Vor 9 Monate
Michael Gummelt (MCG Productions) +47
Michael Gummelt (MCG Productions)

It’s amazing to me to see the same level of brainpower, analysis, creative problem solving and dedication used invent new technology, send us to the moon and fix the world’s problems used to… min/max a video game. I wonder what it is in the human mind that drives us to seek constant perfection and improvement?

Vor 5 Monate
Tobias Ommer +2
Tobias Ommer

I mean if you're asking for a reason as to why we have it, natural selection surely favours systems that are intent on self-improvement. Trying to have more things, trying to get better, trying to have more food, all of this desire for more and better has its place when you're fighting for survival. But when you take it out of context, it can get dicey

Vor 11 Tage
Michael Gummelt (MCG Productions)
Michael Gummelt (MCG Productions)

@Tobias Ommer great answer!

Vor 11 Tage
Donald Simmons +43
Donald Simmons

I avoided watching this video for awhile but after I sat down and watched it, I can’t tell you in words how square they hit the mark on this. Nobody could explain this better. 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 amazing work

Vor 7 Monate
2tini ⚜️ +18
2tini ⚜️

I have a lot of fun trying to FIGURE OUT instrumental play. Discovering how to optimize a game is fun. But man do I almost never play through a game that way. I love just taking in the moment the game is trying to create or playing with self imposed restrictions.

Vor 8 Monate
Jacob Visscher +26
Jacob Visscher

I remember this cultural shift.... it turned the game from one where the playerbase fely inviting as a 12 year old learning english as he explored the world into one that fealt hostile for a 15 year old that still just wanted to explore.

Vor 7 Monate
HenriqueRJchiki +1
HenriqueRJchiki

Sounds like a skill issue

Vor 19 Tage
Paxility +86
Paxility

This video expresses something I've been feeling for years. The competitive nature of games and most players' numerical approach to them removes all the joy from entering a new world and discovering it on my own or other players. The unimaginative and dry way the majority of gamers interact with games has turned me of gaming almost completely. And I used to love it.

Vor 3 Monate
Serenitis +24
Serenitis

It even affects single player games. In whatever community you visit for any game, there will always be that group of people who turn everything into spreadsheets and min-max the entire game from start to finish. Eventually they'll accumulate a critical mass of individuals that think like this, and the entire community will then slowly devolve into an endless morass of mathematical posts "proving" that this one particular way of playing is "better" than every other way, and therefore anything else is "objectively" wrong. Dude I just want to play a cool game for funsies and then talk to people about it, not have a second job. Stuff like this is why I barely participate in communities anymore.

Vor 3 Monate
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz +7
Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz

​​@SerenitisHonestly, just don't engage with gaming communities. Just play the game. I'm a completionist and a perfectionist, but the communities are just too much. Perfection needs to give way to "not being stressed out of my mind" at some point, and some games are almost begging you to not engage with them with a completionist mindset (Stardew Valley). As for multiplayer: just don't.

Vor 2 Monate
drppenev +2139
drppenev

Thank you for verbalising why I never got into WoW. You get absolute freedom to run around in an interesting fantasy world and players made it an office job with spreadsheets.

Vor 9 Monate
Samizdat Broadcasts +111
Samizdat Broadcasts

Beautifully put.

Vor 8 Monate
The86Ripper +53
The86Ripper

You can always choose to ignore the gear/ilvl farm/grind and play completely casually. Just saying. You still need a thick skin and a strong stomach. Also arguably *some* of the optimizations are fun and help push some things you wouldnt be able to do without them.

Vor 8 Monate
Naelin +577
Naelin

@The86Ripper If you need a thick skin and a strong stomach to play completely casually, maybe it's not a good MMO to be played completely casually.

Vor 8 Monate
Gerardo Diaz +202
Gerardo Diaz

@The86Ripper Or... People can go to FFXIV where the community is eager to help people learn. And that's one of the main reasons people switch.

Vor 8 Monate
Jimmy Bean +112
Jimmy Bean

@The86Ripper fuck that shit bruh im just gotta replay Oblivion LOL LMAO

Vor 8 Monate
alex +22
alex

this is very similar to my experiences with Destiny 2 - it often feels like there isn't any room for people who are just feeling things out or who (like me) aren't actually interested in spending hours rolling and re-rolling for the peak of the peak gear and playing the prescribed classes

Vor 5 Monate
Taylor +2
Taylor

As long as you're not planning on doing endgame raids, you can play basically anything you want in Destiny 2. Crucible is explicitly balanced such that gear doesn't have as much of an impact, and Nightfalls are typically easy enough as long as you're near level cap with non-trash gear. It's only raids that will give you trouble and even then that's only certain raids which heavily call for specific exotics.

Vor 5 Monate
Laerin +1
Laerin

@Taylor Even for raids, the margin for error is huge. There's certainly a similar community obsession with needless optimization. But because the content is actually easy, it's not hard to find a clan that just does stuff for fun. Much harder in WoW, where top content is balanced around hyperoptimized playstyles.

Vor 3 Monate
Ursula Major +1
Ursula Major

Get a better clan; I've done every raid with my clan and as long as i met the minimum power requirement (something that took me about 10 hours across 3 weeks to do) the only requirement I've ever faced in doing a raid was "for this boss is your best sword" or "for this boss we use linear fusions"

Vor Monat
Naiane Pitzer +9
Naiane Pitzer

This kind of makes me want to see a video by you talking about how normalized hostility and verbal violence is in competitive spheres of video games and sports, when in other types of environments those behaviors would be seen as abhorrent or morally wrong.

Vor 4 Monate
Ewan Forrest +12
Ewan Forrest

I find it really interesting that there's clearly an obsession here with being the "best player", earning prestige and social clout because of your ability, while simultaneously employing tools that make the game way easier than intended. If you really wanted to prove you're the best, wouldn't you want the challenge to be as great as possible? I use mods in single player games all the time, but they're to screw around and have fun. I wouldn't go bragging to people that I'd beaten a game if I had done so with a bunch of mods that reduced the skill level necessary to beat it.

Vor 8 Monate
Laerin
Laerin

What's even more weird is that it goes way farther than just the best players. Sure, there's clout for being world's first, but the same mentality is also there for players who have zero chance of being world's first. So it's like people have to prove themselves that they are good enough, or else they'll have to accept that they're not hardcore players. To be fair, I see that beyond MMOs, too. Competitive games often have people grinding the ranked ladder, being obsessed with getting to a certain rank(even if they don't enjoy the game at that point). And even in single player games, you have people grinding away at Soulslike games even if they are clearly miserable.

Vor 3 Monate
Chthonic Rook +14
Chthonic Rook

I feel like the answer wasn't to design for the top players, optimizers and the mods, but for the regular people. Eventually the optimizers may have gotten bored but so many of them are toxic it's not only not an issue, it might have been a boon. But then, this seems to be a recurring Blizzard thing where they chase the top 1% player base behaviour.

Vor 5 Monate
Nathan Wubs
Nathan Wubs

The problem is that even the casual player will adhear to this, or more the casual player that think they can become one of those elite players. There is about a 95% chance that during the leveling of your first toon and if you do some dungeons. That someone will link their epeen, aka their dps meter.

Vor 5 Monate
Richard Webster
Richard Webster

I am not sure blizz even cares about top players either anymore. Just look at how the talent tree has been dumbed down to a few choices.

Vor 6 Tage
Kael Dcastro +16
Kael Dcastro

Worlds become real when we care about them not when they are similar to our own. i love this

Vor 8 Monate
Hannah Wilson +1923
Hannah Wilson

As a blind gamer, I was glad to hear the world of opportunity opened up by addons for people with disabities get a mention. I have struggled to find playable games, struggled to play those games, and struggled with feelings of isolation and rejection as I continually try and fail to contribute in multiplayer games. The one and only game I have ever found where I didn't constantly feel like I was letting the team down was World of Warcraft. I don't play anymore, but bigwigs voice and weakauras weren''t simply ways I used to enhance my play, they were the sole reason I was able to play at all. Not only did they enable me to enjoy the game, they also enabled me to play at a decently high level. I've cleared Mythic raids and got KSM several times. In a world which is at best difficult, and at worst actively hostile, the feeling of triumph I got from being able to contribute productively to my team's success cannot be understated. It's nice to know I'm not the only one.

Vor 9 Monate
Loch Ness Hamster +179
Loch Ness Hamster

I genuinely cannot even begin to imagine functioning let alone thriving as a blind gamer, or even a user of computers. That speaks volumes not only about you but about the influence of community generated software to aid people with disabilities, and how important it is to have a space where people can help each other like that. I've spent a lot of time thinking about alternative controller layouts for people with physical disabilities, or missing digits or limbs. But I can't say I've ever even considered the possibility of accessibility for blind gamers. It just seemed too impossible to be worth thinking about. I'm happy to find out how narrow minded I've been about that, and that there are thankfully others who are not so narrow minded, and have made significant progress.

Vor 9 Monate
Facundo Garcia +23
Facundo Garcia

@Loch Ness Hamster yea but imagine the savings in pc monitor , dude could have a very old cheap one and be done with it

Vor 9 Monate
Robot +50
Robot

@Facundo Garcia I mean it is an advantage, but I'd rather keep my eyesight

Vor 9 Monate
My mom never gave me a name :/ +28
My mom never gave me a name :/

that's so sick! I can see the screen and I couldn't even get _close_ to beating a Mythic raid lol. What class did you main?!

Vor 9 Monate
ruinedcd +4
ruinedcd

wait what how? and why? Maybe if the layout of the raid or dungeon was actively voiced out every meter or so, like chess.

Vor 9 Monate
TheSoupin8or +6
TheSoupin8or

Weirdly, I feel this in some ways with Minecraft. Never played WoW, or even done hardly any gaming overall. I understand that Minecraft is cool because it's a really open world and even though there's a progression (better armor, tools, bosses, etc) there isn't really a correct way to play. And even though servers and speedrunning and stuff is big for lots of people, single player is just as satisfying today as it's always been, so it's easy to avoid the problem where you're dragging your teammates down with non-optimal play; even if you are in a server with friends, they can do their own thing and you can just build a nice house or catch pets or whatever on your own. On the surface, this should be a prime example of a game that lacks the problem of competitive play ruining the game for everyone/noobs. My problem is that I'm an engineer, so the thing I'm obviously drawn to is redstone stuff like farms. I like the idea of figuring out an arrangement of components that will just cause food to accumulate and sort itself into chests while I'm doing other stuff. The problem is that I've taken a cursory glance online, and seen how people have already min/maxed this stuff with a ton of very good farm designs. So I have a choice: I can watch a few videos and copy their designs, or I can avoid spoilers and figure out designs for myself, unassisted. However, both of these options suck. For the former, if all I'm going to do is copy what someone else has designed, why do it? The fun for me would be in figuring it out. There's no fun in memorizing the layout of pistons and slime blocks in the exact configuration to maximize the yield and then executing that. If I wanted to follow instructions, I could buy IKEA furniture irl and put that together. So it would seem that the latter would appeal more to me: minimizing online research ("spoilers") to make sure I'm not copying anything and figuring it out on my own. But I still KNOW that other people have min/maxed this problem, that there is a correct answer out there that probably is more efficient/effective than whatever I come up with. It's a solved problem, which makes trying to solve it myself feel pointless, like I'm just reinventing the wheel. So I do neither, I've mostly stopped playing and when I do, I catch myself as I start thinking of automation projects bc I remember the whole conundrum here. It makes the game no longer fun for me, and I wish my mindset about it wasn't so limiting. I don't have this problem with other games, even a competitive one like Star Wars: Battlefront 2, because it paradoxically feels like there are more options for how to play and I don't mind if my builds are sub-optimal there for some reason. It's one of the reasons I like art so much; even if there is "better" art than others, the act of learning techniques from other people and putting my own spin on it feels satisfying because there is no correct outcome. There is no optimal art build, and even if there was, learning to mimic those skills/abilities is still fun in a way that copying someone else's farm build isn't. I guess it's just a lesson in learning to be okay with being sub-optimal. To those of you that read all the way to this point, thanks for hanging in there lol

Vor 3 Monate
Keyinei +6
Keyinei

The moment this video started I got immediate Jon Bois/Secret Base vibes, thought maybe it was a coincidental similarity, and then it became clear pretty quickly that it wasn't, and the little note at the end confirmed it. But at first blush it made me unexpectedly emotional? Like I watch a lot of JB videos as a comfort - lovingly assembled, edited and soundtracked documentaries on subjects I am a total outsider to and otherwise have 0 investment in, and by the end I have a newfound appreciation for the intricate ecosystem behind a little world I never knew existed...and a lot of feelings to boot. And your videos have been similarly inspiring deep dives and there was just something about a) knowing that there was a flow of inspiration between you two, even if purely aesthetic and b) seeing that same approach here that idk, just Got To Me. It works and it fits though. I associate the format with a deep love for a niche subject, a love that nonetheless makes no excuses for the flaws of the thing even as it suffers its foolishness. Really good stuff.

Vor 4 Monate
Stinkybeans +3
Stinkybeans

Imagine turning a videogame into a workflow

Vor Monat
SOSYML +10
SOSYML

I remember in 2008 walking through Tirisfal glades with my lvl.40-50 orc shaman, minding my own bussiness, no-one’s around, and then some random person text me in chat all snarky: ”This is your first character right? Why are you wearing white and grey stuff?” I was just out experiencing the game! Leave me alone!! XO

Vor 6 Monate
Kimari91 +42
Kimari91

I've played WoW for years on a casual basis. The strength of will to say "no" to the pressure the game exerts as a consequence of being designed by spreadsheeters is not to be underestimated. Separately, I'd be interested in an assessment of MMORPG culture in relation to gendered expectations and how these manifest as in- and out-group rituals.

Vor 8 Monate
PickleChip +1
PickleChip

I feel like mmo psychology and sociology needs to be looked at more in general. Cause of how wide their scope tends to be, it could potentially create a snapshot of the majority of how digital video game spaces act.

Vor 2 Monate
HenriqueRJchiki +1
HenriqueRJchiki

Skill issue

Vor 19 Tage
Tobias Ommer
Tobias Ommer

​@HenriqueRJchikiI mean this was funny under the other comments but here it just doesn't make any sense

Vor 11 Tage
Leander van Rees +674
Leander van Rees

Hearing someone speak up for healers getting starved for gear warms my heart

Vor 9 Monate
Red Panda Luver +1
Red Panda Luver

Same

Vor 9 Monate
DairunCates +100
DairunCates

It's not just in WoW either. In early Overwatch competitive, support points were severely undervalued, which led to pro-healers getting ranked out of their teams and casual healing players getting stuck in a loop of rank loss/ELO Hell (because they needed to win 2-3 times as many games as they lost to gain rank). This kind of focus on "killing power" is an industry-wide issue and has drastically affected the makeup of competitive multiplayer team-based games. Games NEED healers to be interesting, but DPS players are always given drastically preferential treatment.

Vor 9 Monate
Jeremy Phillips +19
Jeremy Phillips

If God wanted you to have gear he wouldn't have made you healers.

Vor 9 Monate
andromidius +10
andromidius

Unless you're a Holy Paladin, in which case you're giga geared due to literally zero competition. Heck, even the off spec Paladins in my guild are giga geared better then their main spec right now.

Vor 9 Monate
Otto Castro +3
Otto Castro

That's a powerful conclusion. Thank you for your analysis.

Vor Monat
kirbwarrior K +9
kirbwarrior K

I was initially going to say this help give me words to the problems I have with MMOs, but on a more optimistic note, seeing it broken down like this actually gives me reason TO play them, to know the parts I don't like helps separate them from the parts I will like.

Vor 5 Monate
Micah Foley +27
Micah Foley

Man, i'd LOVE to see you make this into a series, and do Elite Dangerous next. I find the Rats so fascinating. The act of volunteer service entirely for the benfit of others, with no benefit to one's self, in a virtual world, is so interesting to me.

Vor 8 Monate
Smol pp +6
Smol pp

It's not that hard to understand i guess, you get a good feeling helping others even if you get nothing in return, this applies to virtual worlds as well. it's just a feel good mentality

Vor 8 Monate
Micah Foley +11
Micah Foley

@Smol pp oh, yeah, 100%. What's fascinating to me is how that altruistic impulse translates into a virtual world where behavioral extremes are so much greater, by design, and the goals are so much more clearly defined than they are irl.

Vor 8 Monate
ThedaBaratheon
ThedaBaratheon

I often opt to help out other people with no ‘benefit’ to myself except it is a benefit because I like helping people. So I often help opposing faction with a mob, even if I’m pvp and they could easily attack me at lower health taking on their mob. Just because it makes me happier to think I’m making someone else’s play a little more fun and less stressful. I’ve mostly come across really nice encounters because of this lol

Vor 3 Monate
Micah Foley +1
Micah Foley

@ThedaBaratheon well sure, yeah, it feels good to be useful to others. I do the same thing. That all makes total sense to me. But it's fascinating to me how that sort of whimsical, impulsive kindness transforms itself into something like the fuel rats in a game that has no real mechanic for it. Do you know what i mean? You expect the extremes of human behavior in an mmo. Griefers are as common as people who will spend a day helping a noob they've never met get up to speed. It's part of what's so fun about them. but the rats are little different. So, story time, There's this guy I saw a thing about in south America who spends every day preventing follow on accidents on this skinny, dangerous, curving mountain road. People will get in little crashes, which you expect on a one lane two way road with blind turns and no signs or barrier. But tons of people were dying cuz the next driver up the road would just smash into the accident, and that would go on and on. So this middle aged guy (at the time) would go out and look for accidents so he could flag down oncoming traffic before they added another car to the accident. And he's been doing it every day for 30 years or something. And people help him now. He's accidentally created an accident response team. And who knows how many hundreds of lives he's saved. It's personally remarkable that he does it, but it's not unheard for humans to do this kind of thing more broadly. Loss can change a person tremendously. And this is what i think of when i think of the fuel rats. It started with one old guy, and over time they set up an entire infrastructure *outside* the bounds of the game, just to give themselves the opportunity to spend, potentially, hours jumping across the milky way for a 30 second interaction to save a single virtual life. It's the sort of thing you expect to see in real life, because we have empathy for the suffering of others. But there's not the same huge disadvantage to dying in a game like elite. You might lose some in-game currency, or map data you'd sell for currency, and whatever is in your hold if there's anything at all. It's all pretty easily replaceable, and frankly, that risk is part of the adventure. It's that connection between what humans do in the real world and what humans do in games that's so interesting to me. Because that's not caprice. It's not whimsy. And it's not baked into the game. They had to build something outside the game to make it possible, with no real way of knowing if anyone would use it, or even hear of it. It's remarkable how much like the old guy's sudden devotion of his daily life to a few especially dangerous blind corners it is, and all this despite the complete absence in-game of what triggers those behaviors in real life. In a way it kinda illustrates the link between virtual reality and meta reality. It's almost transhumanistic in a way lol

Vor 3 Monate
Stuart Conrod
Stuart Conrod

@Micah Foley In some way I feel like Elite is uniquely set up to create something like the Fuel Rats. The second-to-second or even minute to minute gameplay of Elite is fantastic. The ships are gorgeous, they're fun to fly, and there's a ton of minute detail that Frontier put in to make the experience of flying your ship fun. On the other hand, finding a long-term goal to work towards had always been a bit of a weak spot for the game. Making money had been trivialized so many times that becoming a billionaire wasn't exactly hard; on any given month some series of bugs would probably hit the mission board and you'd be able to stack tons of money. Even the engineering grind stopped being a huge obstacle eventually. Once you've got all the ships you feel like you can use, and tuned them to your liking... what do you do? Some people got really into the PvP scene, others into Powerplay, or playing with the Background Simulation and their own factions or adopted ones, but that's not an answer to everyone. PvP tended to be a long grind ending in a draw between anyways competent opponents, Powerplay was indescribably janky, and the BGS poorly documented and fiddly and prone to devastating bugs. So a project like the Fuel Rats makes sense to me, giving larger purpose to the momentary gameplay. You're not just supercruising around the world moving cans of thing to some other place, you're in a race against time to make a desperate rescue. What a moment!

Vor 3 Monate
MoonGKOL +3
MoonGKOL

Feeling this so much. I was a mediocre player. But i itially that was not a big deal. Then after Litch King came out, it felt like the world had changed. Not the in game world, but the players expectations. It was no longer just fun to play and explore. The player base suddonly had expectations.

Vor 3 Monate
Eli +2
Eli

This video is absolutely packed with complex ideas and is so beautifully crafted. I've watched it like 6 or 7 times now and I find myself coming back every few weeks because there are just so many things to think about. Astounding work.

Vor Monat
Pank Aches +951
Pank Aches

I played WoW for 10 years, starting with the end of BC/beginning of Wrath. I'd found a great community of friends, people I thought I'd want to experience the game with for the rest of its life. It's a bit sad and maybe pathetic to say now but I found someone I had loved through WoW. I'd started and built a raiding guild with my friends and my girlfriend, I'd been one of the raid leaders and the main tank for our raids for years. Then when my job meant I couldn't play as much as the others, I get ONE item level behind some other guy and I'm replaced as tank, told I don't have enough gear to join as DPS, and that I could come back when I had better gear. How? When my one source of improving in the "numbers" game, playing with my friends, had been taken from me? I would eventually stop talking to all of them over time and decided to just play the game for myself, leaving the guild I had helped build from the ground up and experiencing what content I could on my own. It was really sad for me, having spent about ten years playing this game and all these characters and helping shape a small community. It worsened the depression I had already suffered from to play like this, knowing what I was leaving behind (or rather, what I felt had been stripped from me) and playing alone, and I eventually stopped playing altogether at some point during BFA. I know some people like the numbers part of the game, making sure everything is completely and 100% optimized to make the most of each click. But, for me, this video puts into words everything wrong with the game I've never been able to put into words myself. It's a combination of nostalgic, cathartic, sad, and reassuring to watch this video. Thank you, Dan.

Vor 9 Monate
Thought Virus +142
Thought Virus

I don't think it's sad or pathetic at all to have found love through a hobby you enjoy, lucky maybe.

Vor 9 Monate
Eduardo Campos +23
Eduardo Campos

Yeah, it was exactly this feeling that led to me quitting. Wonderful to see it beautifully analyzed by Dan, many years later

Vor 9 Monate
Adam Meme +93
Adam Meme

I had a similar experience. I think one of the worst things that I did in my life other than heroin was getting seriously good at this game where you never really have fun doing the hard content anyway. I definitely had fun, but we also would say things like "us shouting at you is an understandable reaction to failure" after we made a female member cry and leave out of stress. We genuinely believed that was perfectly acceptable behavior. Well, she drives ambulances now, is married and doesn't play MMOs. My bad for real, we taught each other it was OK to bring each other to tears about numbers and split-second timing. She wasn't a thin-skinned person. Logging in just makes me feel crushing depression where everyone I played with has either moved entirely or is a burnout early 30s nobody who plays WoW all day. This isn't all WoW players of course - just that small subsection who experienced social and in-game success near the beginning and had it all slowly slide downward from there, refusing to let go. I play FFXIV and see the same kind of numberlovers, chuckle at myself, and keep my distance. As for love? I know of a couple today that met in RuneScape when I was seven and are still together. They have a child and still play video games. Don't call yourself sad and pathetic. That's just a bitter feeling because of how it was taken away from you, it's not the truth. For me, I got older and needed to work then suddenly "What do you mean you can't play this game up to six hours a day?" was a question i got, a question that pushed me out like yourself.

Vor 9 Monate
xander +9
xander

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Losing friends is never easy, the friendships we make with people online can be just as fulfilling & meaningful as those we make in the actual world, so losing them is just as difficult. I wish you all the best 💛

Vor 9 Monate
Jeff M +51
Jeff M

Oh man there's people in WoW that treat the game like a corporate business job. You must log in. You must do your drills. Etc. Can't imagine playing like that

Vor 9 Monate
05Matz +5
05Matz

Interesting. I've never played WoW, but this fits into something I've been thinking for a long time -- that I really enjoy the process of optimizing a situation, of coming up with new technology (whether strategies, 'builds', techniques in execution, etc.) for accomplishing a goal, but once I know that nothing I can come up with will be as good as solutions that already exist, it robs much of the fun for me, and instead I try to redefine the goal in some way. It's why I wish more video games had mechanics like "Draft" formats in collectable card games -- using randomness to present a new, unique-in-the-history-of-the-world set of optimization problems to a set of players, who then play within that space for a defined period, competing on a smaller playing field that has a unique 'texture' every time. So that theory-crafting and coming up with a new and better strategy for YOUR situation is always in play without requiring world-class mastery of the entire game, and there is no distant, agreed-upon paratextual optimum you have to feel bad for not looking up. Success then becomes not merely _knowing and executing_ a universally optimal strategy, but coming up with and then executing a more effective strategy than the competition to address a new problem.

Vor 4 Monate
Jenn +83
Jenn

I think the funniest part of all this to me is that FFXIV for the longest time had a very, very different social relationship between players based on skill. Shaming players for poor performance or poor gear choices was considered a bannable offense which was frequently enforced by the FFXIV community, and it did net yield a MUCH less toxic game community. Unfortunately, this has changed a bit recently, I think in large part due to two things; a community shift towards Ultimate Raids being considered the standard of whether someone's good at the game or not, and secondly the influx of players who fled WoW during Shadowlands who brought a lot of the WoW mentality to FFXIV. The game is still, I would say from my experience, significantly less toxic on the surface than WoW, but there's a lot of behind the scenes Discord toxicity and such now that didn't really previously exist before the influx of WoW players. A lot of people will behind the scenes call out and shame people in Discords and such if they aren't meeting an arbitrary standard of damage to enable groups to skip certain mechanics and such.

Vor 7 Monate
EQOAnostalgia +19
EQOAnostalgia

You mean Asmongold happened lol. I like his content, but he packed that crowd up and bused them over to XIV.

Vor 7 Monate
Xiphosura +20
Xiphosura

What I find especially interesting is that in my opinion (probably due to a variety of factors, the official anti-addon stance being one) the community around FFXIV hasn't yet reached that tipping point of "statistically optimal play is the best play" outside of literal end-game content. For the entire rest of the game people still (at least outwardly) value individual fun, and for many the chance to help a sprout through their first time in a dungeon is a positive experience. I installed ACT for a while just to get DPS readouts as I thought I'd like the extra data, but I discovered it just made me feel bad about not meeting my maximal potential... and I simply uninstalled it. Nobody got mad at me for doing so. FFXIV's mindset gently pushes people away from min-maxing everything, at least to some extent. The tools certainly exist despite the dev's best efforts but you're not forced into using them by social contract. The mods that do have by far the most widespread use are almost entirely cosmetic, existing in a grey zone where they are technically against the ToS, but the game team obviously doesn't really care to enforce restrictions against them. The modding scene is thus predominantly an expression of individual style and enhancement of free play and nothing to do with instrumental play. Whether this setup withstands the test of time, influx of WoW players and their habits & norms remains to be seen, but I hope it does. A tough balance to strike, and not without frequent controversy and breakouts behind closed doors as you describe, but more people seem to find it more fun.

Vor 7 Monate
Zibix +22
Zibix

The biggest take away i have from this is it happens in discord. FF14 has no control over that. The discord moderators need to deal with that, or even the FC officers. They have been able to, for the most part, keep it out of game.

Vor 6 Monate
Colin +2
Colin

Shaming players random players, let alone guild mates sucks. I know, because I’ve been on the receiving end. But making it an actively bannable offense is absurd.

Vor 6 Monate
Devin +3
Devin

I recently started playing Guild Wars 2 and I have noticed that the community is pretty supportive. I have not tried any dungeons, but I've participated in zone events and world bosses and there are actually guilds dedicated to being community leaders, and providing instruction and help to whoever turns up. I saw one guy get kicked from a party for complaining about noobs. So far I am really enjoying the game, there's tons of structured fun, unstructured fun, random things to join up with other players, interesting story, and solo adventures. And soooo much to explore. The game seems to really reward exploration, which I love.

Vor 6 Monate
Vinyl +22
Vinyl

It's so weird how this video came up when not even a few hours ago I was booted for accidently pulling some adds in a dungeon. Sad part is it wasn't even a heroic or mythic it was just a regular dungeon I needed to do for a quest. I just couldn't stop laughing because I actually got kicked for pulling some adds on accident, cause they were doing skips that I didn't see cause I looked at my second monitor.

Vor 9 Monate
??!! +19
??!!

I'm not a gamer in the least bit, yet I still watched this entire video, and that's just a testament to how good your content is. My ADHD ass can't ever watch especially longer videos without breaking them down, even when they're about my interests, but the way you do this stuff is so engaging and thought provoking and i always come out of it way more knowledgeable than i was before i watched it. I've literally binged your entire channel and it makes me sad there isn't more but given the quality of these, i know why it takes time. Cheers!

Vor 6 Monate
Poni
Poni

I know I’m quite late, but I would actually suggest some of the channels who actually get short cameos as speakers on this channel fairly often, Philosophy Tube and HBomberGuy, and maybe Shaun but he is a bit dry to listen to

Vor Monat
Always Tired +178
Always Tired

I once received an awful, insulting note about how terrible a player I was before being kicked from a guild. I've been ignored in discord calls, banned from servers, and outright told 'you're just trolling' when trying to ask for help to improve my setup. I watched hours of walkthroughs, Twitch streamers, rotation and spec guides, copying others' WeakAura layouts, downloading addons, running simulations, practicing with groups who were "open" to "newbies," over and over and over again, for months. And I was still a terrible Demon Hunter. It wasn't until I straight up quit raiding and dungeoneering, and switched to cheeky, lighthearted RPs in Goldshire on Moon Guard, I finally actually felt welcomed. It didn't matter if my armor wasn't high enough iLVL, it didn't matter if I didn't know the lore that well or was poor at PVP. I had more fun in a few short weeks of just RPing with randoms, with no goal except character development, than I did in over a YEAR raiding. I eventually quit, after it became clear Blizzard was more focused on their raid-obsessed players than on players who didn't power through the game just to reach end-game content or PVP. And the scandal with rampant sexual harassment and horrible workers' treatment cemented against me ever making a return to the game, or any Blizzard game. This video brought so much relief, and vindication, to someone who struggled to keep up and who was never able to figure out why I couldn't perform as well as the others, despite using all the same tools and strategies. The problem wasn't I was a bad player; the problem was people expected me to play the way they do.

Vor 8 Monate
inkredibill +13
inkredibill

Stopped reading at "Demon Hunter".

Vor 7 Monate
naughty thougts +11
naughty thougts

Git gud

Vor 7 Monate
EQOAnostalgia +34
EQOAnostalgia

@inkredibill Good for you

Vor 7 Monate
EQOAnostalgia +47
EQOAnostalgia

@naughty thougts touch grass

Vor 7 Monate
anaturn12 +5
anaturn12

How did you managed to be a terrible DH?

Vor 7 Monate
api g +472
api g

"worlds become real when we care about them, not when they look similar to our own." gonna go find a window to stare out of for the next 500 years. this month has been so good for the longform videos, but i am also so incredibly full of big existential thoughts

Vor 9 Monate
Sahdirah +7
Sahdirah

I haven’t gotten to this place in the video yet, but that quote reminds me of The Velveteen Rabbit.

Vor 9 Monate
ACC +4
ACC

Thanks for the great video Dan. I have been thinking along very similar lines recently after getting back into OSRS in the last couple of years. I mean, I played this game as a child nearly twenty years ago, and absolutely nobody cared about doing anything efficiently. How times have changed. It was truly a land of adventure and fun and unlike anything I had experienced, and I learned a lot about myself and the real world through those experiences. Fast forward to the present day, and OSRS is all about BiS, leaderboards and efficiency. Areas of the map and dead content with ever-so-slightly worse exp rates or methods, regardless of the fun factor, are totally abandoned. Third party client Runelite and its plug-ins (add-ons) are standard, which massively informs how new content will look. The biggest paratext for OSRS is the Wiki, which details what you 'should' be doing, and any player sitting outside of the zeitgeist is fodder for ridicule. There are always players sticking up for those who don't know or don't care about instrumental play, championing a 'play the game however you want' attitude, but I have a strong feeling most of the community is judgemental as heck... Regardless of all this, I'm still having a great time. Plug-ins are an absolute game-changer, improving accessibility for farming through to raiding. It's just very, very different. And I guess I am different! The reason I'm typing this out is that I can't help but ask 'why' players have shaped these games in such a way. Have MMO's unwrapped the modern subconscious human state for us to see and study? It is very interesting to think about. Is this culture a result of the majority of users growing up through capitalism (and thus individualism), seeing time as a resource, naturally competing against one another for the highest status and the best gear to flex in front of others? A bit like a guy in his sports car with the roof down? Possibly, who knows. If the majority player-base had grown up under a different political system, would the collective hivemind bend the virtual world and its culture toward different end goals? Is this why players report that FFXIV seems friendlier overall - perhaps because of the ideologies of the developers themselves, seeping back into the game in different ways? This video is very engaging and I really enjoyed it, but there's so much room to dive even deeper... I truly believe MMO's can help provide answers to some of life's big questions.

Vor 5 Monate
Taisa Gabor
Taisa Gabor

I genuinely cried at the end of this video. I grew up playing WoW as I was introduced to it by my much older brother and this video managed to put into a more eloquent way what I've been feeling and talked to my peers. I appreciate the nuance of this video and the mentions of the things that make this issue not as black and white as some people present it within the wow community. Thank you for the effort put into making this video

Vor Monat
Zachary Boulton +2
Zachary Boulton

What a great reading of the err increase in quality in games over the years. This explains a lot to me, I didn't quite have it before. I remember the first time I used a guide (I printed a copy I found online) in 2005, it absolutely felt like cheating :)

Vor 2 Monate
Joshua Patrick +4
Joshua Patrick

My experience in online MMO’s was old chatroom text based back in the late 90’s? Combat was based solely on how fast you could type/ or it was turn based. You had to pick before engaging but attacks gad a minimum word length in the former and the latter always seemed to end in a draw for some reason…even back then, 25 years ago, it was a toxic system of those who were established in the chat rooms and those who were not. To be fair 1:07:19 You couldnt really call them MMOs, you could call them the precursor to MMO’s though. Unfortunately the cringe was just as prevalent.

Vor 2 Monate
D S +9
D S

As a non-WOW player, this captures the disconnect I've always seen between WOW culture and what the game seems intended for. There are plenty of video game styles where striving for optimization would be fun / warranted / logical, but it seems at odds with a game style that from the outside seems oriented toward exploration, immersion, roleplaying, and vibing. It seems like a game form where you should want to run around without shoes if that's what your character would do, not where you can't even fight a battle in your own way but have to follow along with the ritual devised for you by whoever beat it first/fastest. It seems like an example of bro culture, analogous to mid-2000s film-bros. Never mind the potential for movies to excite the imagination, transport the emotions, or speak to different people in different ways. No, films should be ranked, and ranked MY way, and I should shout down anyone who ranks them differently or who liked something I didn't. It's just such a weird way to take the joy out of art and leisure. Not to say that those who play WOW this way don't have fun, I'm sure they do. But from an outside perspective, it seems like a waste of the game's potential.

Vor 8 Monate
Tobias Ommer
Tobias Ommer

Having played in a tryhard guild with some extremely toxic people, I can tell you that many of them certainly didn't have a lot of fun. It's more of a weird obsession with very rare spikes of joy/accomplishment and otherwise work and anger. And some people you meet, inside or outside of games, seem to only derive joy from tearing others down. It's sad and I don't know if that can really be fun long-term

Vor 11 Tage
yo mamma +1759
yo mamma

I work as an agricultural extension officer and holy shit, the similarity between the problems outlined here and the problems surrounding adoption of best practice in the agricultural industry are mind blowing. Truly, this video is just shining a light on human nature

Vor 9 Monate
J5L5M6 +178
J5L5M6

I've never played a moment of WOW. In fact, the most footage of WOW gameplay I've ever encountered is by watching this video... I say this as someone in technical product marketing, listening to the information presented here, all I could think of for context was trying to understand and communicate with open-source software developers. This world (pun unintended) is indeed a microcosm of typical human behavior patterns.

Vor 9 Monate
Santa Australia +90
Santa Australia

Can i ask for a little bit of elaboration? What is the problems in agricultural industry that are similar here? That efficiency must be embrace or distributors will remove you?

Vor 9 Monate
roflcopterIII +35
roflcopterIII

@DrGeezer gosh, maybe the skin care or make up online community. There's a lot of in versus out practices you can see on the reddit subs dedicated to them. That said, wow is definitely an online game that has fairly even gender participation

Vor 9 Monate
SigmaMinus +30
SigmaMinus

Seconding @FFXfever's request for an explanation - do you mean that agricultural engineers are obsessed with min-maxing? I'd love to hear more from you on this

Vor 9 Monate
Melesniannon +149
Melesniannon

@Santa Australia I think the issue outlined is that people care more about the rules, about the ritual of doing something, than they do about the actual outcomes, which is why he's referring to "problems surrounding the adoption of best practices". I face similar things in my job in education, where if I have a method that produces tangible improvements over the old method, I can't get it adopted unless I show proper obeisance to the company culture by writing an extensive proposal, passing it through my team lead to my manager who then discusses it with the management team who will eventually vet the proposal and send it back down to me to implement. And if the proposal is too complex (not in execution but in theory), that last bit just doesn't happen, because it then touches upon tangentially existing habits that people don't want to change. Not because they can't, but because they don't directly address the original problem directly, but are only indirectly affected by the necessity of executing the improvement. Simply put, an existing ritual takes precedence over actual results and whenever introducing some kind of improvement you each time have to overcome the mountain of "how things are done".

Vor 9 Monate
ViewTube Emperor of Mankind +3
ViewTube Emperor of Mankind

This video was really enjoyable. From writing to music to voice. I studied Padagogy, Psychology and Sociology on what I think the US equivalent to community colleague or just above is and this reminded me of so many good lessons and talks I had with the teacher and the fact that I actually used World of Warcraft as examples for lessons of group behaviour, learning and topics of addiction for various works presentations earning me top scores :D :D :D

Vor 5 Monate
Gautam Sarathy +7
Gautam Sarathy

I may not play WoW or any other MMO, but I do notice similar trends in other gaming communities towards instrumental play as online communities get larger and easier to access. Heck, even in Fire Emblem, an SRPG, I'm noticing this trend towards trying to play in the most optimal way possible with the best builds and best ways to trivialize the game.

Vor 6 Monate
Madison +25
Madison

As a final fantasy 14 fan, the part about World of Warcraft no longer really having a soundtrack… That really blows! FF 14s songs are a highlight of each expansion, each story, each climactic moment. It really is a sin that’s so much of the aural landscape is taken over by add-ons and soundboards.

Vor 9 Monate
Nathan Wubs +2
Nathan Wubs

It's because of those reasons, but there is kind of more. Dailies, upon dailies upon dailies. You can only listen to the same songs for so long while you do your at least 2 hour daily grind for one faction, and then needing to do it at least 2 more times. Like there has been 8 hour daily grinds in the game. With even real reborn tribes it was not that long ever. FF14 music while super amazing probably would also fade away if there were cases like that. Heck I know a lot of the world first guilds that have their musics off :(

Vor 9 Monate
Madison +4
Madison

@Nathan Wubs I understand that. I guess I don’t grind enough to get sick of the music! I can’t imagine it happening for me. I always do my best to take a step back when I don’t feel like playing, so I never make myself sick of anything. I don’t want to be sick of it!

Vor 9 Monate
Geist363 +2
Geist363

Very interesting, this really captures for me how I feel playing modern WoW. Its a game until you reach endgame, then it turns into some kind of continued performance assessment.

Vor 4 Monate
CaitieLou +64
CaitieLou

It's interesting to watch this as someone who's never played WoW, but has a lot of experience with FFXI and FFXIV. In FFXIV in particular, there have been some recent incidents involving addons/mods that has caused the devs to begin cracking down on them. A few weeks back, a group claimed to have gotten a world first clear on a new high-end raid. But then, it was found that one of the players in the raid had a mod installed that allowed them to move the camera back much farther than you normally can, allowing them to get a larger view of the arena. The entire group had their clear titles erased, the loot they won was deleted, and the person who had the mod was banned from the game. Along with punitive measures, the devs have gone out of their way to include as many features as possible in the base game that players would normally mod in. There are moving markers you can place on players and mobs, as well as stationary markers you can place around the arena. There's an on-screen threat indicator that lets you know if you're 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in that mob's threat list. The HUD is also very customizable, with unrestricted control over every single on-screen element you see, and you can save multiple different configurations for different jobs/situations if you want. In cases like that one player who didn't want to wear footwear, the outer appearance of all gear in FFXIV is completely customizable. You can create preset outfits out of any gear your character/class can wear, and easily swap them on the fly. This includes one set of cosmetic gear that makes it appear like you're wearing nothing on your feet, or any other body part you choose. And there's a whole separate game mode you can activate called Gpose which lets you pose characters with other characters and NPC models and change lighting to create any kind of screenshot your heart desires. Want to make a screenshot of your character passionately kissing your favorite NPC? You can do it in Gpose. There is still a large FFXIV modding community, obviously. But it's kind of at odds with itself. On one side is the cosmetic mods, that swap in custom outfits, changes to the character's body or NPCs, or changes the look of housing furniture. On the other side is the gameplay mods, which come in relatively harmless forms like damage trackers. And egregious gameplay enhancers, such as much more elaborate marker systems, timers that normally aren't visible, and extended camera controls. The cosmetic modders hate the gameplay modders because they're making the devs crack down on mods even harder, to the point where if you live stream with purely cosmetic mods you can get permabanned. And gameplay modders hate dealing with the ire they draw, giving the usual excuses like "I CAN do without them, I just use them to practice" or "I can't play at my guild's level without them." It's neat to see all the sociology and history relating to these sorts of things, and how the same issues play out in other and older games :)

Vor 5 Monate
Mr.Aptronym +7
Mr.Aptronym

I am in a similar boat, I played XIV for years and it feels like the devs are really afraid of ending up in the same space WoW is in with weakauras .etc I know a lot of players are angry about crackdowns, but a huge part of the XIV community is merely invested in the casual content and story. After watching this video I wonder how much of that community is only there because the devs have tried to keep the optimization hidded just below the surface.

Vor 3 Monate
Xela
Xela

I like using a damage parser purely so I know my own performance, but holy shit if Square uses that as a pretense to neuter my dress-up doll simulator holy shit I'm gonna be so mad.

Vor 2 Monate
Alexander Rahl +1
Alexander Rahl

It's always been funny to me as a WoW player who had never touched a mod or addon in his life that wasn't an RP addon or an addon to make nights look darker; how elitist these cheaters are 😂 Like, the "best" WoW players all use ridiculous levels of addons to do everything, like weakauras and ugly as sin UI mods. And they look down on you if you don't use them too. Its a community of cheaters, who have normalized cheating to become essentially a requirement of play, and as such they don't even consider it cheating anymore. They'll get mad butthurt if you call it cheating or point out that they shouldn't need all that stuff to play the game if they're as good as they say. I wonder how it would go, if blizzard released a classic server that allowed absolutely no addons at all.

Vor 9 Tage
Kings and Generals +557
Kings and Generals

I would prefer not to get called out like that.

Vor 10 Monate
Jimmy Jazz
Jimmy Jazz

😂

Vor 9 Monate
a z +2
a z

I started playing WoW toward the end of original vanilla and the launch of BC, and finally quit for good during shadowlands. Like so many commentators here, I loved it in the beginning because it was a wondrous, immersive experience. I even made friends and we had our own guild for a bit. It was so much fun exploring and learning things as we went along, countless wipes but still fun, and no pressure. Eventually I got into end-game raiding, mostly t4 and t5, and didn't have much issues with it, no where near the kinds of issues people have today. There were occasional trolls but that was about it. After Wrath came out, I did not do much end-game raiding due to work and school. But I could not believe just how toxic the community became during wrath. And it only got worse from there. The nastiness, the elitism, the sexism, the whatever. I got back into raiding (heroic) a bit during legion, BFA, and Shadowlands, and my god, the community is so awful. It has never been so bad, it's just been on this steady decline and I don't know why that is? I have always pugged raids because I can't devote to a guild (and they are mostly toxic anyways, and I have been rejected from guild applications for being female). Discord is required, and that app is absolutely demonic. I never heard, and we never spoke, such horrible things on ventrilo or teamspeak. They also ruined the gameplay after WoD, with more unforgiving rotations and playstyles, which is not fun and limits who I can play with (I have to do mythic+ with nasty dudes if I want to progress, instead of a nicer more fun person who is less skilled). And now blizzard is making all these "politically correct" moves and changes to the game when that really wasn't the core of the issue -- the issue is that the players are sexist (or racist, hateful towards gays), not the game. Making minor cosmetic changes to the game without fundamentally changing the playerbase (such as making it less competitive) will not get me back into the game. The game itself as it is now brings out the worst in people. The game needs to be engineered to be more pro-social, or tuned down to more what it was in vanilla/BC, or ban addons, etc....until then Blizzard will not get another cent from me.

Vor 3 Monate
clint mcbride +11
clint mcbride

This is literally an encapsulation of about 30 different conversations me and my buddy have had about WoW. From add-ons to the community to the development and how they all intersect. Granted it was mostly late night ramblings while mount and transmog farming old raids. Definitely not nearly this deep and detailed, but it's crazy home many things we said are echoes in this video. You made a beautiful picture out of shredded pieces of paper and it is both maddening and enlightening.

Vor 6 Monate
Drehzahlorgel +9
Drehzahlorgel

World of Warcraft is such an amazing game and it is so sad to see, how far the “numbers game” has come. I returned to WoW due to the start of Dragonflight. I was surprised reading the term "logs" and didn't know what it means. Now I know what it means. Yeah, a MMORPG, where I have to sim my own character and where "logs" are used for the decision to accept someone for the raid content. Just like in PvP, where you need certain addons to see, when the burst window of XYZ is starting, how long on cooldown, etc. WoW has great addons, but some addons are simply going too far, in my opinion. They, somehow, alienate the gameplay experience for me. I play a game and not an excel sheet game.

Vor 9 Monate
Grimpoppet +80
Grimpoppet

I have never played WoW. A friend sent this to me, because I am a sociology student working on my masters. This is an IMPRESSIVE work of research. Have you published it as a formal paper in anyway? 👀

Vor 6 Monate
PifnPaf +6
PifnPaf

Formal = Jargon = Gatekeeping

Vor 6 Monate
Grimpoppet +43
Grimpoppet

@PifnPaf  you could view it that way, but formal is more about just publishing through a group. I was interested in citing their paper in the future, had one been published.

Vor 6 Monate
Youtube University +1
Youtube University

​@Grimpoppet Honestly, just cite this here video.

Vor 3 Monate
Grimpoppet +1
Grimpoppet

@Youtube University  If I get a chance to use it as an example, I certainly will. I have some research planned regarding games, rule structures, emergent behavior (stratagies) and how we can apply lessons from these concepts social engineering.

Vor 3 Monate
Space Boy +6
Space Boy

WoW could just take place inside an empty box. No music, art, textures, objects, effects or flair. Just simple 2D shapes representing the raiders and their spells and the boss and it’s mechanics. People would still play it.

Vor 9 Monate
giascle +767
giascle

As someone who has never played WoW, my biggest takeaway from this vid is "wait, it's not SUPPOSED to look like that?"

Vor 9 Monate
ChocoRokk +164
ChocoRokk

The plot twist is that the game is quite beautiful under all that UI.

Vor 9 Monate
Eric Hall +49
Eric Hall

The irony is a lot of players don’t have a shit ton of ui

Vor 8 Monate
Eric Hall +22
Eric Hall

I’m general you want as little UI as you can while still having all the info you need. Back in the day players crammed thier screen with it but also there was a lot less to need to see back then. Mechanics have gotten to the point now where you need to see as much of the screen as possible

Vor 8 Monate
Murzac +6
Murzac

@Eric Hall Not only were there less need to see, there was also more time to absorb information. Back then it was okay to just stop for 10 seconds to look at all the information you had available and to figure out what's up because not much would happen in that 10 seconds. Now in a typical boss fight in a raid in that 10 seconds 3 different mechanics are going to trigger that you have to react to. Funnily enough my need for boss timers has actually gone *down* over time because if the boss takes like 10 wipes to kill, it's simple enough that you don't really need them anyways. And if the boss takes 50+ wipes to kill, you'll have good enough grasp on the ebb and flow of the boss by the end that you'll just *know* when mechanics are about to happen.

Vor 5 Monate
baltakatei +2
baltakatei

I bumble about in FFXIV just enjoying the music and scenery. Multiplayer dungeon thingies seemed scary but I found them really enjoyable once I realized there was a lot of room for mistakes and most people were accomodating of sprouts like me who like watching cutscenes for the first time.

Vor 23 Tage
Charlie Velling +1
Charlie Velling

Watching this really opened my eyes to how little i care about optimization. My friends and I will look up guides every now and then, but I've never once turned a game's sound off compeletely or relied on an addon to tell me something my eyes can see plain as day. I suppose that means I'd be unwelcome in some cirlces, but honestly, that's fine by me. We're happy with our 'if we finish it then good for us' mentality. Regardless, this video is seriously professional and I appreciate you for having put in the effort to make it.

Vor 17 Tage
Markus Schäfer +5
Markus Schäfer

Great video, really made me think. I wrote my phD thesis about the language use in WoW raid groups and found many points here that resonated with my observations. In my thesis I described the language used in and around raids as a a cross between scientific jargon and the language of (semi-)professional sports, with its need to point out and simplify complex mechanics and forming a 'play->debrief->brief for replay' loop. The use of mods has a huge influence on forming the "WoW language" in a similar way as to how professional jargons tend to brim with terms for characteristic and essential equipment.

Vor 8 Monate
Kit +2
Kit

I love watching an hour and a half documentary over a subject I know literally NOTHING about :)

Vor 5 Monate
Lolzarro Mazino +4
Lolzarro Mazino

I’m surprised you didn’t mention the ICC addon AVR. It would draw in 3D onto the screen and would even show you where stuff was going to land that wasn’t even view yet or hadn’t happened yet. Blizzard took specific action against it. It so intensely trivialized some encounters at the time. Great video though.

Vor 9 Monate
Shjade +491
Shjade

I'm reminded of the incident that first made me quit WoW altogether (as in not just "taking a break" but intending to never play again). It started as something of an instrumental play bullying thing—I was the only melee, a rogue, in an heroic Lost City of Tol'vir run with 4 guildmates. Not my guildmates, unfortunately: the other four were all in the same guild, I was the odd man out. So after the first boss is done, they start making fun of how bad my DPS is, way below the other two, almost in range of the tank's damage output. I briefly explain the first boss is considerably less melee-friendly so of course the ranged DPS will shine, they're not having it, so fine, I stop talking to them and we move on. We get to the second boss. I end up a good 10% ahead of either of them. I don't tease them about it; I just link the meter results. We get to the third boss. I'm even farther ahead of the other DPS. I don't even bother linking the meter, because they all shut up about it after the second boss anyway, I figure I made my point and don't need to rub it in. And as I'm headed toward the entrance to the last boss's area... I get kicked. No warning, no discussion, just poofed out of the group. See, the boss of that heroic had really nice agility drops—it was why I was running it in the first place, to get some upgrades for the rogue—in particular a really good agility-stacking trinket. And they didn't want me in the party to compete for that drop with their hunter. So they kicked me, which meant I was locked to an instance that only had one boss left in it for the day, which meant I was unlikely to be able to find a group willing to join that instance only to kill the last boss while missing out on the first three. They didn't just screw me out of a chance at the loot for that run, they'd effectively scrapped my ability to finish that run at all that day. I logged out and uninstalled. Who needs a community like that in their recreation time?

Vor 9 Monate
Mousse9 +85
Mousse9

Yeah, that’d make me uninstall too. I’ve had 2 instances where I ragequit. One almost, one actually did. Guild Wars 1, played the Monk (healer) in a PUG, along with another guy, so 2 Monks. Mission went bad, one guy started yelling how bad the Monks were, that we sucked, etc. And he would show us what build we should have had and how to play it. He literally ordered us to stay there so he could switch to his Monk. The other Monk just laughed and left (logged out I think), I just moved to another town, not wanting to listen to a crazy weirdo. Bad move. He private messaged me all sorrs of very colorful swearwords. Copypasted too, since nobody could type that fast. In like 5 seconds my entire screen was filled up with him cussing me out. I typed a response (just a “screw you” I think), only to find out he had blocked me! He ranted and raved at me and I was blocked from saying anything back. After I had blocked him in return, it took me a while before I played again. Never again did I do multiplayer with my Monk again though. The other instance where I actually quit was a small MMO which name I don’t remember. Had played it for a bit, trying out all the classes, and stopped for months. So I hop back in the game, on the last char I played. The second I logged in, someone messaged me in chat for me to heal him. I’d forgotten all the controls, and was desperately trying to find the button for the heal. Ofcourse, he started cussing me out constantly. I somehow found the chat function and told him I had just logged in after months and forgotten the controls. Know what he said? “Oh. Wanna team up?” As if he wasn’t just telling me to go unalive myself. Told him “F you”, logged out and uninstalled the game. Hell is other people.

Vor 9 Monate
hhatton93 +8
hhatton93

I'm sorry that happened to you, they were just a bunch of salty noobs. you could have laughed it off, but I respect your decision.

Vor 9 Monate
mag +44
mag

Blizzard did eventually address this problem by enforcing personal loot for all content. But on WoW Classic in pugs this behavior is rampant. People will either stack classes that don't compete with them on loot for their group or kick damage dealers before the last boss in heroics to reduce loot competition. This happens often.

Vor 9 Monate
Shjade +56
Shjade

@hhatton93 It was a last straw/camel's back thing, really. I'd been on the fence about sticking around in general and that kinda exemplified why it wasn't a community I enjoyed playing with anymore, along with a laundry list of other things. Uninstalling was, in a way, laughing it off to move on to other things. And as @mag points out below you, this is the kind of behavior that was clearly becoming more prevalent rather than less. That incident may have been some "salty noobs," but it was indicative of the direction the game was going for, well, the reasons given in this video. And as anonymous, server-spanning PUGs became the norm and changed group dynamics. I *loved* running heroics in BC content, I had so many heroic badges from that that I could buy anything I wanted from the Sunwell vendor when that patch released with hundreds left over. But that was when groups were all still on your server, still people you might actually run into in the world or whose guilds you'd know or who might know yours. I wouldn't go so far as to say there were more consequences for being an asshole, but it felt like people respected the group at least marginally more. I can't say the *game* was any better then, I'm not some BC purist (though I do still badly miss the BC warlock talents, rip 0/21/40 nuke squad), but the atmosphere around pugging then felt different. And then we got global group-finder and that kinda gradually went out the window. Not a direct cause-effect situation, but it sure didn't help.

Vor 9 Monate
RedSpadeTre7 +10
RedSpadeTre7

I'm glad you brought this up, and I also wanted to ask about your last sentence here: Is there a community worth our time? The experience you've recounted here is similar to my own, and not just with WoW, but also Dota, Dead By Daylight, and even Adventure Quest. Are there any communities for games like these worth it? It seems people like you and I get the same results, no matter where we go or what we do. Personally, I've gotten back into Terraria, and also the Dynasty Warriors (and all their spinoffs) games.

Vor 9 Monate
LAAV +7
LAAV

I'm not sure if this experience is related to the topic of the video. I started playing the original 1987 Final Fantasy recently and made a party consisting of the Warrior, Thief, White Mage, and Black Mage. A couple of sessions into my playthrough I pulled up an online list of all the game's spells to see what my mages' paths are going to look like. In the process of doing that I came to discover that a lot of the spells in the NES/Famicom version of the game are bugged as to be useless or outright non-functional. This led me to reading up on the bugs elsewhere in the game and found that the Thief is statistically less efficient at defeating enemies had that character slot been filled by a second Fighter. For a moment, I had the feeling I should start a new game and follow some "optimized" party configuration (like 3 Monks and 1 Red Mage or some such). I didn't follow through with that mostly because I was a considerable way into the game. But the result of this is that I have an amusing newfound fondness for my Thief. He's the substitute Fighter who does his best and boy howdy I can tell just by playing that he doesn't bring a lot to the battle and dies easily. But I want to protect the little guy; it has become a little narrative in my head that brings me closer to this relatively light-on-narrative game (compared to FFII). It's not optimized, it's not the best party configuration, but it feels so good because it creates a story of struggle against the odds - which is fitting for a game about fighting monsters and saving the world. I found out that each class can develop into higher tiered versions of their roles (e.g. Fighter into Knight). I'm gonna be so pumped when my lil useless Thief becomes a useless Ninja.

Vor 7 Monate
oskr152 +2
oskr152

As someone who's naturally bad at video games, more so WoW where there's a lot to min max, this video really hits home

Vor 4 Monate
Aaron +35
Aaron

Group content in WoW is literally only fun when playing with friends. We aren't trying to finish as quickly and efficiently as possible. We aren't trying to get the best gear possible as soon as we can. We just go at our own pace, do a few mythics a week, and that's it. We're usually just screwing around trying to kill each other with boss mechanics and having a blast doing so.

Vor 8 Monate
boiledelephant +2
boiledelephant

My best memories of wow are rolling trivial random dungeons with 2 friends and messing with tryhards by being deliberately slow, or not correcting for their bad behaviour and allowing adds to swarm them, or over-pulling constantly in a sort of chicken game - how many adds are too many? Uh-oh, Dan pulled some more! Sometimes we'd wipe on ridiculously easy content, but we were having a good time. The guys we frustrated were, visibly, not having a good time, even when things went their way: they had the dead, soulless quality of commuters stuck in traffic, just robotically doing what they had to. We tried, with silly RP and erratic behaviour, to remind them that games can be fun. Some got it and started goofing around too, but most didn't.

Vor 5 Monate
constance Torseth
constance Torseth

Stunningly beautiful video. It is a very good representation of the game and its place in the human experience. Thank you for making this.

Vor Monat
Lane R. +11
Lane R.

And this is why I'm guildless and don't run pugs for anything and never touch BGs. Lone wolf, off to play however the fuck I want to with no one else dictating how they think I should be playing. It's the most glorious and freeing gameplay to me. Seeing people in the open world and working together toward a common, short-term goal feels like my character truly being immersed in the world. I hate repeating instanced content. I'm an open-world solo Andy and I will never apologize for playing how I like. I also know I'm never going to live up to group-play standards, so I politely avoid them so folks who do like this "meta" style of play aren't bogged down by my casual ass. Win/win for us all. And as for addons, just give me a mod for a single bag inventory, vendor price, and Altoholic... and I'm good to go. I don't want any addons that play the game for me, or tell me when to push buttons, or what mobs are about to cast. That's half the challenge.

Vor 8 Monate
R D
R D

I played Runes of Magic pretty much the same. Just freeplay for me and my s/o, with the option to chat/group up with others, and a market simulator tacked on. =) Also, randomly going back to the starting areas and just buffing newbies was so much fun. Just give them a buff to hp, and maybe snipe them my shield bubble while they’re in a fight. Playing a priest/knight might have been frustrating in many gameplay aspects, but the headcanon/roleplay was so much fun. And people randomly buffing ME in that starting phase was always such a pleasant surprise, so doing the same wasn’t even something I had to think about…

Vor 5 Monate
int3r4ct +1775
int3r4ct

That story about Moistrainbow getting shit for not maxing out his keys hits home as someone who raided somewhat seriously for years when I was younger. I was in guilds where me and friends would be much higher on meters than other players, but we would get shit for not min-maxing our gear, or using a different set of talents than what the “meta” was from the top rated guilds or not playing as much or whatever. It always bothered me that the other members seemed to care more about following what the big boys were doing and following some “meta” or “rules”, and less than the actual results. Yes, I did not run dungeons every hour of every week, and sometimes I would forget flasks or food buffs and sometimes I would prefer non-meta talents or non-BiS gear pieces or whatever. But if I’m #3 on the DPS meter and everyone below me didn’t forget that stuff, is me not following the “meta” or the “rules” really the problem here? It really bothered some officers than I just did not care to sim craft every piece of gear I got. I knew what stats I needed, and had enough of an understanding of the mechanics to know which piece would generally be better. If it was something like a side grade that might give me an extra 0.5% more dps, I didn’t care. I’d just use whatever I think would be better. Always pissed me off that they would give me shit for this when I would kick their ass on meters without doing any of the simcraft bullshit. Famously, one of my friends, Jelly did not use a boss mod. He literally refused to tell anyone in the guild this, because he assumed they would just boot him. Jelly was a fucking savant at his class. This man was parsing like 98 percentile *consistently* but he just didn’t need a boss mod and didn’t want one. Eventually one of the officers learned that he didn’t have one and gave him shit, but he was #1 on the meters in every single fight, so they couldn’t exactly just boot him. Hope he’s still out there kicking ass and not giving a shit.

Vor 9 Monate
tebesa tebesa +280
tebesa tebesa

I think this is all really true, but it’s funny that we only feel comfortable defending people’s choices of not following best practice, or installing mods, if they fulfilled the objective (such as dealing the most damage) anyway

Vor 9 Monate
A.J D +8
A.J D

Lol, the fact that you still get worked up about it 😂

Vor 9 Monate
Guy Incognito +180
Guy Incognito

@A.J D Grass

Vor 9 Monate
André Soenderbaek +185
André Soenderbaek

@A.J D It's like you didn't even watch the video you're commenting on. His story is completely relevant, and he doesn't seem "worked up" at all.

Vor 9 Monate
Ero +13
Ero

Im a healer and dont raid because its too time consuming for me but often rush HC raids in rdm groups on first few weeks of the addon for the story. But i can understand that kind of if the boss is almost down and for example i got a little bit better gear it could save the group from wiping and we would have killed him. But as long as you are only in HC just play the mechanic because dps or hps is never the problem. I hate when people get so fixated at the meta. so often seen hunters or locks at m+25 that have about the half of the dps than an off meta class because they think about their talents and class rather than just copy pasting.

Vor 9 Monate
Fungii Draws +2
Fungii Draws

i will never forget putting this on as bed time noise and getting woken up by 21:36 with a genuine feeling of being confused and under attack

Vor Monat
Tyxaar +10
Tyxaar

Watching this video really makes me appreciate my favourite MMO, Sky: Children of the Light. It's an exploration/social game clearly and specifically tailored to foster a supportive community. Instead of open text or voice chat, you have to actively sit down at a bench and actually spend time out of exploring or collecting candles to chat with them. To even have open text chat with other players you have to exchange gifts with them and friend them. This small, but present threshold of commitment makes trolling and aggravating beyond being slightly annoying in social areas is basically non-existent. The eight-player cap on groups also limits this, as trolling impact is limited. The in-game currency isn't really tradable, except through gifting hearts (a more coveted currency) to other players, something which inherently encourages being pleasant and amicable to others. Without the outright competition of an economy, there's a focus on working on your own stuff or spending time just vibing instead of competing. There is some social clout that comes with having rare cosmetics, but the already chill atmosphere and lack of tradability feed into a more toned-down heirachy. And although this creates a clear distinction between newer and older players, there's not that much hostility towards the latter. Newer players are known as "Moths," (a rather cute nickname tbh) and the game has a guide system for helping them, as well as a strong social pressure cultivated by the community to at the very least be polite. Memes and jokes about Moths exist, but it's almost always in an endearing light. Offering friend candles to every living being, running into the Krill light, not knowing how to burn darkness trees, etc. This behaviour is generally viewed as mildly annoying, but cute and understandable. The social mores and community exceptions mainly revolve around being polite and helping out other players. Emoting in a friendly manner, helping in wax events, not interrupting music, it's all to make the game more pleasant for the community in general. All this in total creates a community LEAGUES (pun intended) less toxic than your typical MMO or MOBA. Honestly I can't stress just how damn well TGC made Sky's mechanics foster a community pretty much devoid of the elitist nonsense you see in other MMOs. It's a chill social game about making friendships and flying around a beautiful world, and that's what its mechanics encourage.

Vor 5 Monate
LANless +5
LANless

Really interesting; seeing how 'instrumental play' affected a few of my then-friends was a lot of why I never got into League of Legends, and it's fascinating to see that dynamic on a larger scale.

Vor 8 Monate
PickleChip +3
PickleChip

I find the examples and accounts of older wow players fascinating, because they describe a dream game for me where you interact with people actively, and socialization was a key part in the player experience. Where content was fun and engaging, and only got better at the end game. And it makes me sad that I may never get to play that game. The social aspect of wow is just...not there anymore, at least in the few times i dipped my toes into it. Maybe I was just missing something, but all I saw was a numbers game, where you were irrelevant until you grinded up to the top, and then grind some more to get the best gear everyone else already has. I want to give the game another chance, see if i can find what remnants might still be there, but I know ill probably come up empty.

Vor 2 Monate
Alyssa Bayraktarqyzy +1
Alyssa Bayraktarqyzy

I haven't played WoW, but organized events in ArmA sound like something you've described? It's built on communication, you have a well-defined job to do without it being too, uhm, "choreographed"? There's an issue with fucking larpers, though, but they aren't _that_ common.

Vor Monat
glupik +603
glupik

As an anthropologist who's been trying to convince academia of the relevance and importance of 'virtual' worlds this video is so cool. It's satisfying but also a little bit sad how we all have only a handful of references that we circle around.

Vor 9 Monate
J5L5M6 +32
J5L5M6

You're a visionary. Dig in and write a paper!

Vor 9 Monate
Yanko Kassinof +1
Yanko Kassinof

if this cheers you up, when i get to university ill be doing researches and papers and studies on this kind of topic, if i dont manage to do this in philosophy or public relations (or whatever you call it in english) which are the courses im attempting, i will in the future when i manage to get into psicology

Vor 9 Monate
TheShanoGamer +4
TheShanoGamer

It is astounding how much a microcosm of human behaviour can reflect that of the behaviour of the world at large, at least to some degree. It seems we can actually learn a lot about human behaviour via smaller, virtual worlds because of the fact that they are sometimes more direct and, well, smaller, and thus potentially easier to holistically study than, say, that of a country. There's still a lot to learn from mediums like games...

Vor 8 Monate
BINARYGOD
BINARYGOD

@TheShanoGamer well the problem with that is that people will, even is very social virtual settings, not really be themselves (or more of themselves) in this setting vs the real world. Of course, the virtual world strongly affects the real one - so... maybe actually you need to look at both, not because one helps inform the other, but because you need both to understand all of reality.

Vor 8 Monate
Arthur Schopenhauer
Arthur Schopenhauer

Isn’t the point of anthropology to learn about cultures? This is a trivial recreational activity in the developed western world, yet there are still people whose language and religion and way of life we know nothing about, that you think this deserves priority honestly seems a bit prejudiced

Vor 8 Monate
Les Mortimers +1
Les Mortimers

I played WoW for about ten years, starting from the age of 12. As an awkward nerd who never excelled at social interactions (and still doesn’t at 30) my WoW experience was playing a blood elf huntress who traveled the world with my trusty wolf Diarhan, my only friend and companion throughout the whole game. It was my version of roleplaying a character that felt intimately familiar to my own life, but also felt strangely empowering by turning these social flaws into an adventure. I missed pretty much the entire social side of WoW and listening to the principles of instrumental play, I’m kind of glad. WoW will always be a soothing experience im my life. I don’t think I’d feel the same if I’d experienced any of the social pressures that came with it

Vor 4 Monate
Doktor Radium +1
Doktor Radium

I never played wow because the tute missions made me want to take up sun lethal doses of ketamine as an alternative to coffee creamer. But this is really fascinating from a design and social perspective and it's also a way to help my hideous insomnia - fascinating but no sudden noises so I can drift off thinking about stuff that I like. Contrapoints and philosophy tube are equally great for this. Fascinating but soothing. Love the channel. And I love the sleep I get on my second or twentieth listen at 4am and my arsehat neighbour is watching Love Island at 110db and I have to be up in 4 hours to mind a hyperactive puppy. My cat likes the show too and will nuzzle the phone.

Vor 3 Monate
Quiet +4
Quiet

This was really thoughtful, thank you for all the work you put in to this video

Vor 9 Monate
MrDalisclock +9
MrDalisclock

I never really agreed with the phrase(used by GMT quite often)that "Given the chance, players will optimize the fun out of the game". Until now.

Vor 5 Monate

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