Why Electronic Voting Is Still A Bad Idea

  • Am Vor 3 years

    Tom ScottTom Scott

    We still shouldn't be using electronic voting. Here's why. • Sponsored by Dashlane - for free on your first device @ www.dashlane.com/tomscott

    MORE BASICS: de-film.com/us/playlist?list...

    REFERENCES:

    Computerphile video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3_0x...

    Stories about voter identification happening outside the law: www.theguardian.com/notesandq...

    Voting machines left connected to the internet: www.vice.com/en_us/article/3k...

    Hackers getting voting machines to play Doom: www.salon.com/2019/08/14/hack...

    "Small, well-funded team backed by a national government": www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us...

    Scottish election: www.theguardian.com/politics/... and news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6... - with the Excel detail on page 50 of www.openrightsgroup.org/wp-co...

    Report on e-voting in Estonia: estoniaevoting.org/

    Written with Sean Elliott twitter.com/SeanMElliott/
    Directed by Tomek

    Graphics by Mooviemakers www.mooviemakers.co.uk/

    Audio mix by Haerther Productions haerther.net/

    I'm at tomscott.com

    on Twitter at twitter.com/tomscott

    on Facebook at facebook.com/tomscott

    and on Instagram as tomscottgo

Leopold Ramutsamaya
Leopold Ramutsamaya

That's the good thing about Africa, our election results are known before we even go to the polls so we don't have to worry about all of this...

Vor 3 years
Priscila Santos da Costa
Priscila Santos da Costa

brilliant!

Vor 9 Tage
Ulisses
Ulisses

@Leonardo Rinaldi indeed.

Vor 21 Tag
Leonardo Rinaldi
Leonardo Rinaldi

Hey, it's the same here in Brazil! But it's still mandatory with the frauds :)

Vor 21 Tag
Ulisses
Ulisses

We have the same phenomena in Brazil.

Vor 24 Tage
iamtheiconoclast3
iamtheiconoclast3

Bravo, my friend, for seeing the good in literally everything. ;)

Vor Monat
rewp234
rewp234

It's so funny that every time you say "no one does that" it's exactly what the Brazilian system has done for 30 years

Vor 3 Monate
marcot
marcot

@CD qual é a garantia física de quando vc faz um pix? Amigo, estamos em 2022. A urna existe desde 94, vem sendo atualizada desde então. Se você procurar saber como uma urna funciona você irá entender que não existe o porque se preocupar.

Vor Monat
CD
CD

@marcot Qual é a garantia física do que é apurado nos boletins de urna?

Vor Monat
Guilherme Borges
Guilherme Borges

@Adriano Fernandes até pq ficar o tempo todo usando como argumento "como o tom disse" é acrescentar muito num debate né?

Vor Monat
Adriano Fernandes
Adriano Fernandes

@Guilherme Borges o que o cu tem a ver com a calça mesmo? Se for pra falar bosta não acrescentando em nada me erra. E procura estudar e se informar antes.

Vor Monat
Adriano Fernandes
Adriano Fernandes

@Guilherme Borges vc entende que o nível de importância do zap é diferente de um sistema eleitoral né? Ou acha que receber um bom dia tem a mesma importância de ter certeza do voto ser contabilizado?

Vor Monat
Don m
Don m

In Denmark, which has one of the most digitized infrastructures, I was given a piece of paper with some names and boxes and a pencil. Afterwards I folded the paper and placed it into a box. The box was in constant view by multiple election officials. Results were counted before sunrise the next day.

Vor 3 Monate
Priscila Santos da Costa
Priscila Santos da Costa

@Pedro Henrique This, and the size of brazil.

Vor 9 Tage
Coaster Blocks
Coaster Blocks

@Pedro Henrique the number of polling stations and poll workers scales with the population, whether it’s 26m or 300m.

Vor 11 Tage
Avenger of the Dead
Avenger of the Dead

@Eddy Goodwin I didn't say electronic voting was flawless, I just pointed out the reasons it has a lot of support because I'd noticed a lack of people talking about the benefits to electronic voting. If those benefits can be derived from other means, then by all means, but the main reason something like electronic voting entices me is for the increased voter turnout. I feel elections should be determined by what the people want, not determined by a small subsect of people with time to vote.

Vor 22 Tage
Eddy Goodwin
Eddy Goodwin

@Avenger of the Dead this method is a recipe for corruption. Your putting a lot of trust in software that can be hacked.

Vor 23 Tage
dustojnikhummer
dustojnikhummer

Czech Republic as well. You also must register in advance if you want to vote in a different location/district than your permanent address. They have a long ass list of people who are even allowed to go into the booth to fill the ballot. The box is outside of the booth, in the view of around dozen people at a time as well as many security cameras.

Vor Monat
Mark Johansen
Mark Johansen

I've often heard people say, "You trust using the Internet to place orders for expensive merchandise. Why not for voting?" But there are major differences. The company has every incentive to process my order accurately. The people counting votes may or may not want an accurate count. If someone changed my order, either deliberately or by mistake, I'll know something went wrong when I get the wrong merchandise, and I'll complain and demand they fix it. If they count my vote wrong, will I even know? How can you have anonymity and also prove that your vote was miscounted?

Vor 2 Monate
Heitor Diogo Braga
Heitor Diogo Braga

Eletronical ballots do not use internet

Vor 15 Tage
gray wind
gray wind

If I was purchasing merchandise at prices comparable to the stakes of a general election, I'd be exceptionally wary of how the finances are processed. If I was spending a billion dollars on a painting for example, I'd probably only be willing to do so while in the same room as the painting and the people accepting payment for it. If I could, I'd find a means of physical payment such as gold, if not I'd ensure my trust is well-placed in the bank to cover the amount if something goes awry.

Vor Monat
David Machado Santos
David Machado Santos

I have been a poll worker for elections in Portugal for many years now and I completely agree. Election security is one of the things we should be most conservative about. Here in Portugal, we have to individually count all the ballots we receive before the voting starts, and we must cross-check that by the number of people who have voted, based on the registration rolls, with the number of ballots that have been entered into the ballot box, and the difference must match the number of ballots that remains unused at the end of the day. All the counting is done under the observation of the party delegates and you are forbidden by law to hold any pen or writing instrument while handling the ballots. If there is any discrepancy in any voting table, even something as small as a missing signature or one lost ballot, you get called into court and you have to explain it to the judges.

Vor 29 Tage
onehairybuddha
onehairybuddha

Very similar to the UK, this is the way.

Vor 19 Tage
•ToBeNamed•
•ToBeNamed•

As someone who does poll work in Canada, the paper ballots and all the record keeping we do makes it next to impossible to tamper with the vote. Even as poll supervisor it would be impossible for me to do without getting caught.

Vor 19 Tage
John Johnson
John Johnson

"I dont know how to do it. It's impossible" - Some dude after 12 min of being explained how it's possible.

Vor 2 Tage
j b
j b

too bad not many canadians vote 😢

Vor 15 Tage
Mark Johansen
Mark Johansen

Even if software is open source ... Years ago a web site for programmers that I frequented at the time ran a contest: Submit a sample program to count votes that would bias the results but which looks valid to someone studying the code. The winning entry relied on a buffer overflow in a C program, for those who understand what that means. The point is, cheating software doesn't have to be blatant and obvious. You can put subtle "errors" in a program that make it wrong, but that would not be obvious even to an expert studying the code. And let's face it: elections today are high stakes. A political party might be very willing to spend a few million dollars to hire a team of experts to create voting software with such subtle "errors". Do it right, and even if you are caught you could plead that it was a mistake and not a deliberate fraud.

Vor 2 Monate
Richard Conway
Richard Conway

Surely though, while that would pass a cursory look, if it were actually to be implemented at scale, there would be enough eyeballs that even the subtlest of fuckery would get seen, right?

Vor 5 Tage
Dominic Beaumont
Dominic Beaumont

thnks mark

Vor Monat
Darth Parallax
Darth Parallax

The number of US Congressmen is something like 500ish-600ish. The number of competent hackers in the world resourceful enough to undermine national elections must be in the thousands. 10,000>500 Rule by Hackers = More Democratic than Rule by Landowners I am sorry that this might be rude to point out.

Vor 20 Stunden
Parth D
Parth D

"Seal them all up and transport them to the place where they will get counted....No one does that." Indian election commission: 👀

Vor 3 Monate
Parashar Doley
Parashar Doley

Yeaaaa but We got a completely "selfie taking with ballot paper" free and anonymous voting system

Vor 9 Stunden
Fábio Capela
Fábio Capela

@SharienGaming Because the electronic systems, when properly designed and implemented, are safer, and also faster and cheaper to "count", than paper ballots. And transporting would be needed anyway because you got to store all things used in the voting process in a safe place, regardless of whether voting is electronic or in paper ballots. (BTW, for countries like Brazil and India, who make their own voting machines, they don't cost that much; the costs for designing the hardware and software are divided across hundreds of thousands of units, and the manufacturing costs also go down due to the volume. Besides, much of their cost is offset by how cheaper it is to run an election with electronic voting machines after you already have the voting machines, meaning that in the long term it's actually cheaper to use electronic voting machines.)

Vor 14 Tage
SharienGaming
SharienGaming

@Fábio Capela for starters... military grade encryption doesnt really mean anything... its just SSL/TLS the same stuff your browser uses to talk to youtube... maybe they use extra long keys, but that just requires putting in a bigger number into the configuration of your software also... brute forcing your way into the middle of the connection is not the most likely attack... it is much easier to for example compromise some network technician to add your machine to the VPN, thus giving you access... or bribing your way to the central counting server to get access to that... and that could give you full access to the end result and with that much at stake? you can bet there are very dedicated organisations that will make this happen because they only need an in at one spot to compromise everything... with paper ballots? much harder, because at the end theres always the physical evidence that can be checked and because there are many many more people involved

Vor 15 Tage
SharienGaming
SharienGaming

if you are carting it around anyway... why use expensive electronics and software that you have to cart around, maintain and hope you can trust...when you can also just cart around boxes filled with paper

Vor 15 Tage
AstrobioJoe
AstrobioJoe

"पता है न सबको? नही पता है...कहां पता है.."

Vor Monat
Prismarine Stars
Prismarine Stars

Imagine going into a voting booth and seeing the Doom title screen.

Vor 2 years
Fabio Guarita
Fabio Guarita

Iddqd, idkfa and game on!

Vor Monat
Guilherme Ferreira
Guilherme Ferreira

​@CHS you made me laugh hahaha

Vor Monat
Pietrodo
Pietrodo

this is exactly how we turn in Brazil

Vor Monat
Léo
Léo

I would spent 8 hours voting

Vor Monat
Pinkio
Pinkio

@Jeremías i suggest to check this reply section again and think about what's going on

Vor Monat
Benjamin Lehman
Benjamin Lehman

I am for an electronic voting system on its own server. NOT from home. That would be horrible. You must go to the voting center

Vor 3 Monate
shaggygoat
shaggygoat

I love how the honestly designed Nedap ES3B Voting machine was hacked to play chess despite it being able to only execute code in its ROM (not altered for the hack). Though a buffer overflow bug in a file save dialogue box, a new virtual machine was created on the stack out of crafted return addresses to parts of functions in ROM. Then there are the blatantly dishonest voting machines and tabulators made be Sequoia Systems (with Good/Evil switch SW4), Diebold’s "explorer.glb” back door feature, and the mandated single user and password to be shared by everyone because the system must be restarted every time a new user has to log in.

Vor Monat
UltimaDoge
UltimaDoge

I’m all for tech and advance and stuff… but I also know, that everything that happens on any kind of computer, CAN be altered. So voting on paper is just the one and only safe way to do this… for now

Vor 29 Tage
Kiba Anazuka
Kiba Anazuka

The only times I've heard of electronic voting in some form is overseas voters (Military or Overseas Citizens) in my home state where they can fax or email a ballot to the county elections office to vote in an election. The main thing is that you are still filling out a paper ballot and having to scan or fax your ballot to the elections office who treat your ballot as an Alternative Format Ballot that is verified of the signature and then put onto an official ballot so that it can be run through the machine and tabulated.

Vor 22 Tage
educatedtiger
educatedtiger

Point made (and I've used similar arguments against electronic voting before, so thank you for the great material!), but as for the Doom thing: given that hackers and geeks will attempt to run Doom on literally anything with a chip, we've hit the point where if you CAN'T run Doom on something, it can be argued that that object is not, in fact, a computer.

Vor year
Rafael Jardim Soares
Rafael Jardim Soares

@romxxii you have a very good point

Vor Monat
Alex Wang
Alex Wang

@X3DwAnY easy with a ti84/nspire

Vor 3 Monate
Just a random techpriest
Just a random techpriest

@X3DwAnY already done

Vor 3 Monate
Exigency
Exigency

@Mia it was done, they shoved some parts into a pregnancy test housing and turned the results section into a screen.

Vor 3 Monate
Hayden
Hayden

@Sean Smithee fvfft

Vor 3 Monate
Curtis Michaels
Curtis Michaels

In New Mexico we use paper ballots which we feed into an air-gapped computer. I feel comfortable with that combination. I've wanted internet voting for years, to increase voter turnout, however you've taught me why that's not a good idea, at least not yet. Some of the problems you brought up may never be solved. Thanks for the food for thought!

Vor 3 Monate
Rodrigo J. Da Silva
Rodrigo J. Da Silva

@iamtheiconoclast3 blockchain would be perfect for this. A vote can only be counted if the whole blockchain can process it. Any mistakes and the vote would fail. Impossible to hack

Vor 17 Tage
steven young
steven young

@iamtheiconoclast3 no, but same with regular voting. so what can you do

Vor 29 Tage
iamtheiconoclast3
iamtheiconoclast3

How do you know the computer is air-gapped? Is there any part of this process that doesn't just degenerate to blind trust?

Vor Monat
iamtheiconoclast3
iamtheiconoclast3

​@sharpenedge How can blockchain solve any of this?

Vor Monat
sharpenedge
sharpenedge

Blockchain has entered the chat.

Vor Monat
A La Una En Punto
A La Una En Punto

in my county in texas, we switched to a hybrid system. we fill out paper ballots, but use electronic machines to count and store the votes. even that isn't good enough for me. I'm not opposed to using machines to count the votes, but my suggestion is we use an analog design, rather than relying on digital computers; no easy way to tamper with the machine without physically modifying it in a way that makes any such change relatively easy to spot; thus maximizing trust in the machine. on election day, the votes are counted and only once all the votes are received (maintaining the anonymity of the voters) does the machine spit out the final tally, the revelation of which should be publicly broadcast

Vor 2 Monate
Marc Behrmann
Marc Behrmann

When you have enough money and enough criminal energy you can make everything happen. The task is to make it more difficult. A hacker can manipulate a vote in the internet from everywhere in the world. For voting machines its a little bit more difficult. For paper voting you need a lot of people in a lot of locations. There are people who monitor this votes and there are people who can see or film you when you exchange the sealed boxes. A vital part of this monitoring is to escort these boxes for every second between voting and counting.

Vor Monat
Graveto777
Graveto777

I live in Brazil and here electronic voting has always been in line with what the population has shown, in addition to the votes always being well tied and never reaching absurd numbers, unlike United Papers, which has already had two scandals of suspected fraud. You probably just want the ballot because it's easier to tamper with.

Vor Monat
piguu
piguu

Just realised Tom did this in one-take.

Vor 3 years
I'm kind of a moron, but
I'm kind of a moron, but

Not one take. It’s one shot, but a “take” is each time you film something. This could easily be like 15 takes. Good try though, just wrong word.

Vor 19 Tage
Monkey Animation and Gaming
Monkey Animation and Gaming

@Mangy_Dog i just dont use a script

Vor 9 Monate
Fantasma Regular
Fantasma Regular

That's why the video is full of errors and wrong.

Vor 11 Monate
Renato Miranda Gonçalves
Renato Miranda Gonçalves

But is that verifiable? its an electronic video

Vor year
dielaughing73
dielaughing73

@Marc Thayer Yep he's a really fluent and professional speaker

Vor year
Rob
Rob

I've got some good ideas for how it *could* work involving hashing and checksums which could successfully verify that each vote was genuinely cast and that every vote tallies up to someone who is eligible to vote, but much like you say, how to you instil the trust in the public, how do you prove that the vote recorded was the vote intended. I don't know anyone who trusts anyone in power these days, governments have abused their power so much and in such serious ways, populations around the world just have zero trust or faith in the process.

Vor 20 Tage
André LuFeMa
André LuFeMa

Achei todos os seus argumentos sobre o voto de papel e contra o voto eletrônico bastante interessantes. Todavia, um profissional da sua área não deveria estar propondo mantermos votos de papel e sim, trazendo ideias para que possamos melhorar a qualidade da votação eletrônica. Sem querer parecer ofensivo, você me pareceu um conservador querendo convencer-nos de que a Terra é plana, que as vacinas não devem ser tomadas, e que devemos votar no papel. Seu vídeo não contribui com a melhora do sistema. Estamos passando no Brasil por uma estratégia de desqualificação do voto eletrônico com um único intuito de manipular a opinião pública. Ninguém agrega proposta de melhorias para o sistema. Criticar o sistema eletrônico com o intuito de aprimoramento será sempre bem visto. Comparar o sistema arcaico e cheio de falhas de voto no papel com os sistemas eletrônicos, sem oferecer ideias para a melhora deste, é um desserviço para a evolução da humanidade.

Vor Monat
Zwerggoldhamster
Zwerggoldhamster

One solution a friend of mine came up with was to pick a random ballot (like randomized qr-codes) and memorize the ballot number. Later on, every ballot's voting result is published in an open database. That means, everybody can count the votes themselves to verify the official result, and everybody can verify that their own vote was counted correctly. That you can also see the other votes without knowing who they were cast by, isn't really a problem, because you know the end result anyway. It took me a few days to figure out that it actually breaks anonymity in a very problematic way...

Vor 3 Monate
Faran Webb
Faran Webb

Yes i think the solution is something like that. Each voter should get issued a unique number. There should not be any numbers issued that are higher than the number of voters, so for example if there are 10 million voters, the numbers issued should be the numbers from 1 to 10 million. After the election a list is published with the numbers next to the parties/candidates/whatever they voted for. I can't see an easy way for the authorities/hackers/whoever to cheat this.

Vor 16 Tage
Humberto Seghetto
Humberto Seghetto

You could still have bad faith actors saying their votes weren't counted correctly by saying they have a different number (or by claiming they voted in a different way) and everyone would be able to "see" a very tangible "proof" of fraud. The ones that want to discredit the system and the ones that want to believe them would do it either way.

Vor 22 Tage
dustojnikhummer
dustojnikhummer

@Wyatt Godfrey And if that number gets out you break the anonymity part.

Vor Monat
Wyatt Godfrey
Wyatt Godfrey

@Dev For Fun claiming your vote was changed or was cheated, happens anyways. The problem is that people can go see for themselves. You literally could just let people write down the number to verify later.

Vor Monat
Dev For Fun
Dev For Fun

this could work, but i don't think most people would be able to memorize a number maybe if it was a password like gifcat generates by combining two words to make it easy to remember but then it also makes it impossible to prove your vote was incorrectly registered, since there is not way to know for sure your ballot is the one you claim it is, you could just be misremembering the code it pass the anonymity filter but fails the trust filter, one would only need to convince a bunch of people to claim their vote was changed

Vor 2 Monate
BodaBoom BigAl
BodaBoom BigAl

We must demand paper ballots, voting in person, counted by ALL political parties on the ballot. None of the party members leave on the last voting day till the counts are agreed to and sent to the state.

Vor 3 Monate
M Henrique
M Henrique

Bingo!

Vor 3 Monate
Guilherme Dantas
Guilherme Dantas

Also, here in Brazil, people don't just vote on their phones or computers. That's complete nonsense. No one does that. We go to locations determined by the local government, but instead of a booth where you insert your paper, there is an electronic device.

Vor 2 years
guilherme barreto.
guilherme barreto.

@plinsavi amor as urnas são auditaveis sim

Vor 21 Tag
Ghost Apostle
Ghost Apostle

@Otavio Cordeiro You can alter the software in advance before the election. Obviously, if you try too hard, you can bypass any security measures, the question is why people are so reluctant to add one more layer of protection and transparecy?

Vor 2 Monate
Otavio Cordeiro
Otavio Cordeiro

@Ghost Apostle the brazilian electronic voting machine is not conmected to the internet. If you want to hack it you need to physically go to each individual urn with a cable and do that.

Vor 3 Monate
Lanneszin
Lanneszin

@plinsavi it literally was audited in the Dilma vs Aécio election

Vor 3 Monate
Ghost Apostle
Ghost Apostle

The argument that you can actually audit votes with a printed total amount is absolutely moronic. If the device was hacked in anyway, the total amount of votes doesn't prove the legimiticy of individual votes. This should be obvious as 1+1 = 2. At best what you can do is to ask for a miscount, not for actual validity of the votes.

Vor 3 Monate
honeymoon giu
honeymoon giu

ok so this is a great video with some very interesting points! however it lacks to talk about how the culture of crime is different in different countries. the countries which use electronic voting, like some LATAM, African and Asian countries there is a MUCH different culture of electoral crime. Im from Brazil so I’ll be mostly speaking about it, when voting was on paper in brasil the ammount of fraud was unthinkable, we had just gone through a dictatorship and no one was trusting the government. I will give you a more practical example of how DIFFERENT the culture of crime is in the USA and Canada from Brazil, we give our fingerprints to the government from the time we get an ID, we can be 5 years old, they get our fingerprints, to vote you have to register your fingerprints, damn to get free public transportation you put your fingerprints before entering. The government organized itself like this because of the amount of land Brazil has and the amount of people, its an easier way to prevent fraud and organize systems. Sure electronic vote might be a bad idea in countries like the USA and Canada, but is a very trustworthy system in countries like Brazil. and going against it just shows how little one knows about the culture of that place. good video tho.

Vor Monat
Jacob 🇷🇺
Jacob 🇷🇺

I like how this video is being recommended when it's voting time in the EU, also I love how Northern Ireland wasn't showed as part of the UK, shows how it shall belong to Ireland 🙃

Vor Monat
Fergus Feggans
Fergus Feggans

It was though, at 2:47?

Vor 16 Tage
Guilherme Ferreira
Guilherme Ferreira

Brazilian system cover all this. By system, I’m not referring to the software, is not possible to achieve that only with software But I agree that the hardest part is to make people understand how it really works and why it can be trusted

Vor Monat
Dom G
Dom G

This is hilarious hearing about anonymity requirements as an American where some voters have to provide ID in-person to vote ! Very different in Britian, I guess.

Vor 19 Tage
Dangerous Noodle
Dangerous Noodle

"I am endorsing dashlane for two reasons; One, they have given me money, obviously" Ah Tom, never change.

Vor 10 Monate
Ana Ng
Ana Ng

@zin well, quite frankly "software, hardware, and servers" encompasses the whole of the internet so yes i suppose he did. if you're not happy with dashlane (and god knows i can't blame you - all your passwords gone if your master password ever gets pwn'd), you should look into firstly how their encryption actually works (i.e. they can't see your passwords either which yes, that's something you have to trust just as the whole of the internet relies on some measure of trust) and secondly something like keepass, which is a password manager that's both offline and open source

Vor 4 Tage
Ana Ng
Ana Ng

@Tristan Raine that was very kind of john dashlane to give tom scott money

Vor 4 Tage
Frederick of The Artic
Frederick of The Artic

You know he's a good YouTuber if he's honest.

Vor Monat
zin
zin

@Melaine White he spends the whole video criticizing software, harware and servers, but in the end he offers a program that uses exactly these technologies and still asks us to trust, I don't want Tom, I'll manage my passwords on a piece of paper, thanks

Vor Monat
Melaine White
Melaine White

Dashlane ate all my data and their response was oops, so sorry, that shouldn't have happened, nothing we can do, leaving me totally screwed.

Vor Monat
hetstroboerke
hetstroboerke

In Belgium we use electronic voting. It is just like on paper: you go to the voting office, go in a voting box and you vote on a computer. That prints your vote on paper (with a bar code) so you can check it. You fold it and have to put it in a box, just like on paper.

Vor 13 Tage
Vinicius Brito
Vinicius Brito

I've been working with IT (Information Technology) for 2 decades now. All you have shared are reasonable concerns. And they can all be addressed with current technology. It takes research, a lot of engineering and good quality decisions from people involved in the project / process. Banks are almost 100% digital and they are safe. Cripto is 1000 times even safer. All methods have advantages and concerns...

Vor Monat
Lashy
Lashy

> It takes research, a lot of engineering and good quality decisions from people involved in the project / process. Aka, it doesn't work. Also, Banks have no requirement for anonymity. If someone hacks my bank account, I can just point to the records and prove that fraud happened.

Vor 23 Tage
Thomas Mahoney
Thomas Mahoney

Completely agree with this, the day governments permanently switch to electronic voting will be a worrying day indeed if it happens. I have another question, any IT experts feel free to enlighten me as I'm clueless about electronic software on the most part: How come mobile and online banking has become a thing? Yes, I obviously keep my phone safe and there is a passcode which only I have to access my accounts, but how are my and other peoples' accounts so well protected from hackers/meddlers? Or are they not, and there are cyberattacks on banks' systems all the time, which they just don't tell the public about and somehow solve? I.e. how has the software used for online banking become so safe that people can trust it with their livelihoods?

Vor 3 Monate
Lime Mason
Lime Mason

It hasn't. Bank hacks can and do happen. It is rare that they attack the bank's security system, it is much more common to get bank info through phishing and other methods, because it is easier

Vor 3 Monate
Fabio Soares
Fabio Soares

If this guy says this in Brazil, he can be prosecuted for threatening democracy.

Vor 18 Tage
NaruShadow
NaruShadow

Tom: "I trust that the device you're watching this video on is completely Malware free" Me: "I'm glad you do because I don't"

Vor 2 years
Pumkin
Pumkin

"And up to date"

Vor Monat
Brunoha
Brunoha

Brazil is a fairly decent example of digital voting, our voting machines are electronic, but the data transfer is still very off-line, our main problem is the trust at the central counting network, that currently trusts on a bunch of parties checking on it and not just a single one, being only one could manipulate the results for sure, still if anything I like to spend just a couple of minutes on my voting session and wait for a couple of hours after the election to see the results.

Vor 2 Monate
Akib Al Azad
Akib Al Azad

@Xi JinPingPong on mobile theirs literally no way to check

Vor 5 Monate
Mitchell Spanheimer
Mitchell Spanheimer

@Kenionatus Kenionatus You sound like Bender from futurama...

Vor 8 Monate
Sameer Hussain
Sameer Hussain

the best antivirus is you opening up your task manager and checking out if somethings wrong

Vor year
toranine09
toranine09

this just makes me think about the story where a flipped bit in a 2003 belgium election count resulted in a candidate receiving over 4000 unexpected votes

Vor Monat
Cameron Hawkins
Cameron Hawkins

Yea. Having an electronic device that was created and exists for 1 sole reason is far worse than a massive group of people who make mistakes and possibly have agendas.

Vor Monat
Rafael G
Rafael G

Nice theorizing, buddy, but you forgot to do your research about what actually has been done about electronic voting. Brazil has been using an electronic system completely open source and not connected to the internet for over 20 years, the system is constantly scrutinized by authorities and specialists and no insecurity was ever found.

Vor Monat
DBAddy
DBAddy

Love when someone makes a youtube video on something without actually doing any damn research.

Vor 26 Tage
Chraan
Chraan

Honestly, who needs an antivirus if you can just watch this video where Tom Scott himself checks your computer and assures you it's clean

Vor 2 years
The Wandering Gamer
The Wandering Gamer

Imagine a Tom Scott Anti-Virus. A lot of bodging.

Vor 2 years
System64MC
System64MC

@Inan Jarif I tried it and Tom Scott downloaded into my PC and cleaned it

Vor 2 years
Inan Jarif
Inan Jarif

@System64MC Like a secret ending in a video game? Damn, now I feel like downloading malware to unlock the ending and get that one last achievement

Vor 2 years
Mushy
Mushy

thousandth like

Vor 2 years
System64MC
System64MC

plot twist: the video changes if you have a malware or outdated OS and tells you

Vor 2 years
Ƿynnťari
Ƿynnťari

Voting is eletronic in Brazil. And it feels like it always has been. Growing up I could not conceive why developed countries still vote the archaic way using papers.

Vor 3 Monate
Charlito
Charlito

Cara, vai estudar mais antes de falar merda sobre urna eletrônica.

Vor Monat
Robbie Rotten
Robbie Rotten

@Rogério Penna did you watch the video? Tom just explained in detail why, whether Trumps claim is it’s true or not, it would fail to be significant enough of a missing vote count to actually sway an election off of its result. If it mattered, there would be overwhelming evidence and extreme redundancies involved. And as with most people alive, no one really cares what Trump thinks, he says a ton of things and many of them was just him ranting about something and stirring up drama.

Vor Monat
Rogério Penna
Rogério Penna

@Robbie Rotten yes, and Trump really trusts your system

Vor Monat
Rogério Penna
Rogério Penna

@José Ángel of course there is.

Vor Monat
José Ángel
José Ángel

@Dev For Fun Because you put your ballot inside a clear box with a small hole, placed in the middle of the room that everyone can see, which is going to be opened in from of everyone, just after the polls are closed.

Vor Monat
Rafael Almeida
Rafael Almeida

You should read about the eletronic voting system from Brazil. The same difficulties you'd have to alter a significant number of paper ballots can be applied to the eletronic machine. Each eletronic machine have a determined number of people who can vote. There is no way you can change a significant amount of machines to change the course of the election especially considering the number of people and the size of the country. In fact, it would be easier to change a lot of paper boxes during transportation for boxes previously altered for onde determined candidate. In addition, the software is verified by universities, army, congress, and other entities before and after the election, and all these must agree during the process.

Vor Monat
Ana Ng
Ana Ng

@Márcio Corrêa i think he talked about those practices as a dystopia rather, though the issues are more than he mentioned

Vor 4 Tage
DGoldy
DGoldy

LULA WON LOSERS. 😂😂😂

Vor 18 Tage
Jão
Jão

@Jorge Vasconcelos vc é burro ou se faz? O que o castanhari fala vem de varias fontes diferentes, que foram escritas por especialistas na área. Você não precisa ter faculdade pra citar um artigo escrito por um doutor em história.

Vor 23 Tage
Jão
Jão

@Matheus Gonzaga "inúmeras" Fonte: grupo de WhatsApp

Vor 23 Tage
AlwaysWannaCake
AlwaysWannaCake

@Teo Figueiró vamori!

Vor 23 Tage
Jasper
Jasper

In the Netherlands we have DigiD, a digital ID. It's already used to arrange all things you need and is completely trusted, I don't understand why they don't use this as an addition on physical voting (addition because elderly people might find it difficult so let them mail it in, they already do that anyways).

Vor 2 Monate
SharienGaming
SharienGaming

breaks the anonymity requirement - if you can prove who you voted for, there is an avenue for coercion or corruption

Vor 15 Tage
Finnspin
Finnspin

It does make proving who you voted for really scalable.

Vor Monat
Mirjam
Mirjam

@FreezeFire Oh, an individual will of course only affect a few people at most. But I see a problem with this: if you can cast reasonable suspicion on an unspecified and unverifiable number of votes, how sure can you actually be of the results? Probably not enough to sway an election, true... But in a country with not that many citizens and an aging population with relatively immobile rural elderly precentage the problem compounds on itself. With party lines often running young-urban and old-rural, it becomes worse. And as Tom hinted, it only needs to be "could happen" to lose some credibility. (Along the same lines, maybe polling places should not allow phones in the ballot-filling booth. "We wll pay you x amount if you take a selfie with a ballot you filled with the number of our candidate.")

Vor 2 Monate
FreezeFire
FreezeFire

@Mirjam ? You created a not very common scenario where a small amount of votes (one) is altered, how would this affect an election where millions of votes are at play?

Vor 2 Monate
Mirjam
Mirjam

All electronics aside, I see one major problem with electronic voting: how do you know the person IDing themselves and voting for someone isn't being seen and/or pressured? They're at home, how do you verify this if you don't see them go into the booth alone? I'm not saying bad men with guns, I'm saying an overeager youngster and their grandparents. "Oh, granny, I'll do the complicated computer thing for you! And now we're going to check this box here and klick there and done!" (You can make the webpage as clear as you want, but at our family home here in Estonia granny lived downstairs and the computer was upstairs.) "Well, I marked your vote down as purple party, they're the normal ones!" "I always thought you went for the yellow like me!" Etc etc.

Vor 2 Monate
Richard Natal
Richard Natal

Just to contribute, in Brazil, the machines are sealed and transported to the local TR and the transfer occurs over there. We vote with this system, which is improving each election, since 1998 with no significant problem until now.

Vor Monat
Bruno Oliveira
Bruno Oliveira

@Ítalo Lucena Vaz não tem e nunca terá. A urna é inauditavel, pois o próprio presidente do TSE falou isso.

Vor Monat
Bruno Oliveira
Bruno Oliveira

@Eduardo Azambuja kkkkk valeu, 5 série. O cara vem, mostra por A mais B que a tal urna eletrônica não é plausível, mas tem que vir um apoiador de bandido dizer que sim. Parabéns! You're showing to all our foreigner friends how dumb Brazilian left is.

Vor Monat
Eduardo Azambuja
Eduardo Azambuja

@s4ito Cadê tuas provas? Não vale corrente do zap nem notícia de site bolsonarista.

Vor Monat
Eduardo Azambuja
Eduardo Azambuja

@Bruno Oliveira urna ruim vacina ruim bolsonaro bom muuuuuu

Vor Monat
Eduardo Azambuja
Eduardo Azambuja

@Bruno Oliveira muuuuuu

Vor Monat
MagyarGabeN
MagyarGabeN

"Vote red, or you'll regret it." Said Tom, wearing his signature red shirt.

Vor year
Gamey
Gamey

@Daniel Madureira Isorrowproductions??

Vor 4 Monate
jaina heartles
jaina heartles

Tom, the inventor of guillotoms

Vor 7 Monate
Synthetic Ant
Synthetic Ant

If you paid attention, you might notice that his signature red shirt, is in fact, light pink.

Vor 7 Monate
Joe Stutler
Joe Stutler

@Random Pheidole minor they'll be called Tom Zones.

Vor 8 Monate
Xylo White
Xylo White

@PALKKI TT also no finland

Vor 10 Monate
Earthlings
Earthlings

In India the electronic voting machines are used which print a ballot and drop them in the box and the ballot can be verified by the voter and both the ballet and electronic data are verified by counting

Vor Monat
Ca Lango
Ca Lango

Wow, I am watching the same questions that was answered 30 years ago and every two years my government still needs to answer again to this people.

Vor Monat
Kevin Berger
Kevin Berger

I think that electronic voting can be, and _should_ be utilized by elected representatives for the passage of legislation. There is no good reason to continue to have members of Congress gather at the same place at the same time, given that _their_ votes are part of the public record anyway.

Vor Monat
Tácio Medeiros
Tácio Medeiros

After having watched LPL for a while, seeing the "tamper proof" seal and padlock at 1:41 made me laugh.

Vor 2 Monate
kayakr17
kayakr17

"To break an electronic election you don't actually have to break it, you just have to cast enough doubt." *Winces in United States*

Vor 2 years
Zach Mercer
Zach Mercer

@Cecil Hartley Yes, the 2020 election was double plus good. 🙂

Vor 2 Monate
wasdwasdedsf
wasdwasdedsf

@theyeatusdad "Will there be enough to overturn tens of thousands of votes in multiple states? No." what a compelling piece of argument. how unfortunate for you that your side has gotten utterly humiliated as the fraudstrers you are. how doe sit feel being responsilbe for this unelected old folks home patient destroying the world at a pace never before seen? you are responsible for more damage than H* r

Vor 4 Monate
wasdwasdedsf
wasdwasdedsf

@bitronic "most of the evidence has been debunked, though, like those 200+ affidavits that turned out just to be a grab bag of minor complaints from republican watchers, none of them related to voter fraud." you are a walking propaganda tabloid. maybe you should go watch some kardashians and stop embarassing yourself online? none of the evidence was even looked at. the courts all found loopholes to avoid looking at the lawsuits. theres a ton of things tha thas been verified though, as everonye concious already knew... one of them being supreme courts ruling the clown mailin system unconcstitutional and thus uncertifiable

Vor 4 Monate
wasdwasdedsf
wasdwasdedsf

@Someone Somewhere there wasnt "one glitch"

Vor 4 Monate
wasdwasdedsf
wasdwasdedsf

@Henry Goggin "I think the point he's trying to make, (while being kind of rude) is that Trump has accused biden of voting fraud, but hasn't given any evidence as to why that's the case." except the GOP did... a ton of it, and thousands of sworn testimonies... and every court were too terrified to allow any investigations that they found some legal loophole to dismiss the suits before even looking at them

Vor 4 Monate
Francisco Godoy Pereira
Francisco Godoy Pereira

Each of them need clever people to build process and mechanisms, and both of them can become unsecure. It's because of that we build and improve methodologies, in order to make it secure. The question is, which of them we're going to focus? Technically, we have mechanisms to bring thrust in both sides, we just need to puzzle them.

Vor 2 Monate
Bhargav Vyas
Bhargav Vyas

After understanding the problems of electronic voting I am more proud of my country, India. We have electronic voting that I believe solves, not all, but many problems. The process goes as below. You vote by pressing a button. The same symbols are printed on paper, so you can verify and then automatically fall into the voting box. At the end the machines are sealed and transfer counting location. The machine prints the result E.g. Party A as 500 vote and Party B as 600. If there is a doubt it can be verified against the printouts. All machine's results are counted manually So it is the best of both worlds. You get the trust and anonymity of paper voting and the speed of electronic voting.

Vor 15 Tage
Cameron Hawkins
Cameron Hawkins

I’d trust a machine far more than I trust “officials” to not tamper with numbers.

Vor Monat
Lashy
Lashy

How do you trust the "official" not to tamper with the machine? All they need to do is stick a USB stick into it for a few seconds when nobody is watching. To tamper with a physical count, they would have to replace a whole box full of ballot papers.

Vor 23 Tage
CSG Performance
CSG Performance

His paranoia is silly. Every reason he points can happen in the physical way.

Vor Monat
JackInTheBox
JackInTheBox

Things found at DEFCON this year included: - Encryption keys for a poll book stored in plain text in a standard xml file. - Root access to a ballot marking machine achieved by connecting a USB keyboard and pressing the windows key. - Hackers were able to remove a CF card containing voter data using nothing but an inexpensive screwdriver, then replacing it with one that allowed the hackers to play pong. - Lots of absent or simple OS and BIOS passwords that allowed machines to be used as low end PCs.

Vor 3 years
Joca
Joca

All simply resolved by placing 01 guards and a camera watching the voters (with a blind for the screen obviously)

Vor 3 Monate
Digital Unity
Digital Unity

@Jaded Cynic that's nothing! Every pencil user automatically has write privileges

Vor 3 Monate
Jaded Cynic
Jaded Cynic

I'm glad no one's noticed that Dixon left the encryption keys for their Ticonderoga 2B's writing protocols ACCESSIBLE ON THEIR WEBSITE! Or how Staedtler leave root access open on every pencil they sell!

Vor 2 years
whuzzzup
whuzzzup

@octorokpie Well, voting machines are illegal in Germany for example.

Vor 3 years
h2g2guy
h2g2guy

@Nemo X I'm not sure I made this obvious in my comments, but poll watchers are supplied by the parties that have a stake in the election. If Democrats, Republicans, and Greens are running in an election, each party will nominate several (usually at least two) people to go and watch the polls, making sure that no one tampers with the election against that party. So vote watchers are often skeptical of voters and poll watchers from other parties, and they have the right to challenge certain processes if they think something has gone awry. (A Republican poll watcher, for example, might challenge a voter registered as a Democrat if it appears that their signature doesn't match the one printed on the voter roll.)

Vor 3 years
Mimir Memer
Mimir Memer

Electronic voting could totally work if you had to log in using your identity card. A list of anonymous voter id's with the corresponding votes can be made public so that everyone can check their vote is correctly registered. This way you would hhave transparency and anonymity.

Vor 3 Monate
nikooo
nikooo

@Papa The military stays with you while youre voting

Vor 28 Tage
Papa
Papa

@nikoooAnd how will govenment stop them ? Even worst if present government wants to remain in power.

Vor Monat
nikooo
nikooo

@Papa Its illegal to record them in Brazil

Vor Monat
gray wind
gray wind

People can be coerced into voting a certain way if there's a means by which voters can be coerced into proving how they voted to those coercing them. As an example, Jim's running for political office as a puppet to a criminal organization. Tony, a member of the same organization Jim is a puppet of, points a gun at Tom's family telling Tom to vote for Jim. Tony later returns after the election with a gun to Tom's family, forcing Tom to reveal his voter ID to Tony so that Tony can verify Tom voted for Jim.

Vor Monat
Papa
Papa

@Diego Felipe Ciccheto What if people started selling Id for money?

Vor Monat
Yuri Thomas
Yuri Thomas

If the same problem exists in both paradigms then they equivalent in certain points of view. Each and every attack to a electronic voting system has a counterpart in the physical ballots system. Then, I agree that common computational systems are vulnerable but a electric voting system should be not conventional in the aspect that each and every part of the electronic voting system is specifically design to mitigate the problems in each step of the voting. The same way the physical system has done.

Vor 3 Monate
Yuri Thomas
Yuri Thomas

It is true that the both examples, for paper ballots and electronic voting, are similar. And if paper ballots require a certain number of resources (duplicating ballots and bribing) the same is true for electronic voting. The resources may be cheaper as ballots or expensive as hacker to breach safety on electronic voting systems. It is really important that the hardware used is specific purpose instead a general purpose as a smartphone and computer. But it needs support for software updates so a only hardware is not a viable approach. And even hardware is hackable. So it is cheaper to patch a vulnerability in software than it is in hardware. Again, both approaches for voting have vulnerabilities and can be exploited in similar ways but electronic voting has far more room for improvement as technology evolves.

Vor 2 Monate
SioxerNikita
SioxerNikita

The problem with electronic fraud is the amount of exposure time needed to do something. Paper ballots... You have to know how many ballots were delivered (that is counted in some countries), create duplicate ballots with the votes you want, create the sealed box, now you need to sneak in and replace the box. Likely needing to bribe someone in the process. Or you can bribe all the election officials that are counting, leaving you very vulnerable. That is way more than for example: Plug in USB using a vulnerability, counts the votes, redistributes them and you unplug and leave. Or if it is on a USB. Plug it into a phone with a dongle, count the votes, redistribute and leave. You will need to get access to the source code, but you only need to find one leak to get you that source code. You can pre-develop all the software, etc. Essentially it takes far more resources to break a paper voting system than an electronic one. Especially if run on computers that runs stuff on software, because vulnerabilities can rewrite that code, potentially through the receiving of votes as well. So again, massive issues. I would to an extent trust electronic voting if every part of it runs purely on hardcoded hardware, so there is no way to overwrite the internal software.

Vor 2 Monate
ManiBjm
ManiBjm

What do you think about the Brazilian electronic voting machines? Have you studied about?

Vor 2 Monate
Caíque Francis
Caíque Francis

You didn't do your research well. In Brazil they bring the machines to the poll stations... but anyway, let's call some hackers to know how long it takes for them to penetrated into the system.

Vor Monat
ColCoal
ColCoal

In 15 years: Tom - "Here is why Quantum voting is an even WORSE idea!"

Vor 2 years
Martin Smouter
Martin Smouter

@Alireza Khosravi a. quantum computers only use the effect you're describing for computing the message not sending it. B. If what you describe is true quantum computed messages in general would be impossible. Edit: c. What's your source for this I assumed in a. You were talking about the effects of the Heijsenberg uncertainty principle, but maybe that was a wrong assumption.

Vor 2 years
Dez
Dez

“No one will be able to see who you voted for, because you already looked at it!”

Vor 2 years
cooldude 4172
cooldude 4172

A given party can only get 2 votes.

Vor 2 years
iamtheiconoclast3
iamtheiconoclast3

Iunno... I think it would be cool to try a superposition of various governments simultaneously.

Vor 2 years
Ayush N
Ayush N

@ZeroKelvin Keyboard that's why we use yellow and green instead

Vor 2 years
Humberto Seghetto
Humberto Seghetto

Tom has a very sound claim that making everything electronic makes attacks on the voting system easier to scale, which is mostly true even if for most electronic voting systems the only different thing is that you have is the interface during the voting and the counting. Conversely, district based voting has a much bigger impact on the ease of fraud in big elections, yet is widely used anyways. Forging 5 million votes to overturn nationwide majority vote is hard, but forging some thousand votes on a dozen of counties is much easier. It's not really about safety. Both methods can be safe enough with the right precautions, it's about public perception.

Vor 22 Tage
Yechezkel Binstok
Yechezkel Binstok

Some places in the US have a screen which you vote on, and then it prints out a ballot for you with your vote(s) on it, which you then insert into the machine.

Vor 2 Monate
ITGuy12
ITGuy12

So in Pennsylvania, a new polling station is popping up. We have stations that print a ballot (which you can confirm through a glass window), then cancel or submit. If everything looks good, it’s submitted to the secure ballot box (locked and located at the back of each machine). It’s a paper/electronic hybrid.

Vor 3 Monate
ITGuy12
ITGuy12

@Lashy essentially, except that the ballot is also recorded electronically.

Vor 19 Tage
Lashy
Lashy

Aka; the world's most expensive pencil... a load of extra effort for no benefit.

Vor 23 Tage
Deverly Fonseca
Deverly Fonseca

I like this model. Brazilian congress approved the same desing, but god knows why the far-left Supreme Court backed by the most corrupt Brazilian Party suspended the change to this model.

Vor Monat
Kenih!
Kenih!

Scott, can you make a video about the Brazillian Eletronic voting?

Vor 3 Monate
FreddieInDaBoxx
FreddieInDaBoxx

Just add an "i'm not a robot" captcha then you're fine.

Vor 2 years
Andrey Radchenko
Andrey Radchenko

And like that, voting turned into /r9k/.

Vor 11 Monate
Satah
Satah

Then noone will vote 😂

Vor year
Rodrigo Badin
Rodrigo Badin

@DrabberFrog if the person is unable to pass a captcha test, this person probably is not able to decide who to elect.

Vor year
Frank van Dorp
Frank van Dorp

Democrats probably would consider that to be "voter suppression".

Vor year
Bee!
Bee!

@no thanks no need to give me a mental breakdown cause I can't complete the captcha. But for tho. Am I a robot?

Vor year
lyes215
lyes215

Papers in a box always in view of multiples witnesses is the only way for me. Im french and we have always done that. I cant imagine voting on a computer.

Vor 2 Monate
Quintinohthree
Quintinohthree

I can. I've literally seen my parents use a voting computer. It was also in my municipality that the only proven electronic voter fraud occurred, which became instrumental in the eventual switchover fully to paper ballots.

Vor 2 Monate
Dollar Bill
Dollar Bill

As an American alot of us don't trust the machines either but sadly that's what we have.

Vor 3 Monate
X P
X P

We use paper ballots in the United States

Vor 3 Monate
Guilherme Cabello
Guilherme Cabello

All the problems you said can be averted But as you said "To break an electronic election, you don't actually need to break it, you just need to cast enough doubt on the result.". So the only reason that changing is a bad ideia is beacause people are not used to it so they will doubt the new system

Vor 3 Monate
Joeyjojo Jr Shabadoo
Joeyjojo Jr Shabadoo

Is that not reason enough?

Vor 3 Monate
Otavio Cordeiro
Otavio Cordeiro

@Platypus Paws but doubt can be cast on any system if you are willing to cause chaos. Trump cast doubt on a paper election and Bolsonaro in Brazil is casting doubt on an electronic one.

Vor 3 Monate
Platypus Paws
Platypus Paws

And so they should doubt it, it is too important for there to be any room for doubt in it that could be taken out.

Vor 3 Monate
sarkface
sarkface

In Switzerland, due to our direct democracy, we vote a lot (4 times a year each time about a handful of topics) - everything is done decentralized using paper ballots sent by mail or directly put into the ballot box. Results are usually published 4-6h after the polling station closed. Now the left is pushing to introduce e-voting in combination with e-identification. As a software engineer I have a really bad feeling about that especially since the scale of the manipulation factor outweighs the convenient factor by magnitudes.

Vor 2 Monate
WTao
WTao

There are a lot of ways to make e voting safe, india is a good example

Vor Monat
infrabread
infrabread

Rule 34b: If it exists; Doom will be ported to it.

Vor 3 years
Ultra01
Ultra01

Rule 666

Vor Monat
The Screem Regular
The Screem Regular

But Can It Run.. MINECRAFT??!?

Vor 2 years
The Screem Regular
The Screem Regular

DOOM FOR NINTENDO SWITCH

Vor 2 years
delta250a
delta250a

@Felix Hadler Best one i've seen is on a printer. Not very good controls but it worked.

Vor 2 years
DeepSpaceWanderer
DeepSpaceWanderer

@Felix Hadler Well, smart frodge has some buttons.

Vor 2 years
Chris Hockman
Chris Hockman

I worked the election in Florida. We use paper but it automatically tally’s and at the end of the night connects to an Ethernet and then sends it. It also prints out a slip that is then shown to all party members present who report it to their team. It was so odd to me that it was all paper but still used technology to send it. In the end there was a hand recount for some elections.

Vor 2 Monate
DGX
DGX

It's good video. I agree. Though old method is tedious and resources consuming but it's trust worthy.

Vor Monat
Charles Iverson
Charles Iverson

Thank you, Tom, for contributing to mistrust of elections in the United States. A lot of good that did us in the past few years.

Vor Monat
Brandon Dubrowski
Brandon Dubrowski

81 million lmfao

Vor Monat
ttn778
ttn778

Moral of the story: Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Vor 3 Monate
P M
P M

The people who understand computers the most, trust them the least (at least, as far as privacy, security, and financials go)

Vor 2 years
Palmberry
Palmberry

Simon Heath oh you think that anyone would use cryptographic hashes to insure you really are you? Nah, that would be too secure

Vor 2 years
Simon Heath
Simon Heath

Gosh the effort done people will go to to steal my vote, when it would be much better to try and steal my money. It's like voting is so sacred, that the thought bad actors might be able to steal a vote, means we best keep using the old system. Despite that to steal votes in the current system all you need is a mouth and fingers. Not a degree in crypto and cyber security. I wonder if people trust their mobile bank transfer will actually go to who its intended, or will it end up in some random bank account. Maybe even a hackers.

Vor 2 years
Luis Almeida
Luis Almeida

@ZeroNumerous Not wrong. But a network and it's nodes are different from our 'computer'. Even air-locked plcs can be vulnerable, but in terms of *trust*, we can trust our 'computer', even if it's likely to die if I throw it in a pool.

Vor 2 years
ZeroNumerous
ZeroNumerous

@Luis Almeida I have a self compiled linux kernel. I trust my computer as far as I can throw it. Even if my computer is secure: Only one computer on the massive network it relies on needs to be insecure for the network to be insecure.

Vor 2 years
Mario
Mario

TRUE!

Vor 2 years
Felix Beutin
Felix Beutin

We in germany vote by paper ballot. It works and we get the results the evening of the election or the day after

Vor 2 Monate
David Miller
David Miller

A couple of decades ago, I was in an organisation that implemented a bought-in electronic voting system for its somewhat-large board of directors. Votes were cast in live meetings by pressing buttons on a console, with a special ID card inserted to identify who was sat there at the time. The results, including a list of who voted which way, were printed twenty seconds later for the chairman to read out and share with the world. As a proof of concept, I was able to inject a completely different set of results before it even reached the printer, adding votes from people not in the room, deleting votes from people who were there, changing other people's votes on the way past, changing the totals, etc. My edits were blatantly obvious, and done manually while the system was still being commissioned, but it wouldn't have been difficult to automate the whole process and to be far more subtle about it. It was very embarrassing that someone working at my level in the organisation could do such damage so easily, while sat at my desk in another building! And even more embarrassing when it became clear how easy it had all been: Servers with blank admin passwords are never a good idea! It all needed secured very, very quickly,... and very, very quietly.

Vor 2 Monate
David Miller
David Miller

@Dev For Fun This was the final commissioning test, about two days before going live: There was zero provision in their system for adding a password on that link, and no time to change it. (And we had a bunch of other stuff to do in those two days. It was a hectic time with very public, externally driven deadlines.)

Vor 2 Monate
Dev For Fun
Dev For Fun

they thought they didn't need password on the testing phase

Vor 2 Monate
Derick Silva
Derick Silva

Look who has both feet firmly set in the dark ages! As we can see... The "vast" research this fellow did for this video completely ignored Brazil. Where elections voting via electronic urn occur since the end of the nineties, guaranteeing not only safe, but also the fastest elections around the world. But, as we can see, this guy doesn't even consider anyone who is not anglo-american or european, as capable of making reliable software for such task!

Vor Monat
Rafael Campos
Rafael Campos

Can Monero be used as a voting system? In the sense that everyone in the country would have 1 currency unit of monero money and in the voting day they would split the currency unit throught the wallet of each possible person running on the election. At the end we would count the money each one has and whoever has more would win.

Vor Monat
Riccardo B
Riccardo B

You forgot a big issue with "phone voting:" totally break of the "anonymous constraint." Do you want to "sell" your vote? (Maybe you are forced by your boss or someone with a power position) It is quite easy: cast your vote in front of your "customer." I cannot see any way to prevent this if I can vote with my phone.

Vor year
VVayVVard
VVayVVard

​@GizmoMaltese The last-minute change option doesn't solve anything. You can create an automated program that will vote at the last minute, and coerce people to install that program on their device.

Vor 4 Monate
Astrid Lindholm
Astrid Lindholm

@Patrik Lundqvist its not that hard in a small country like estonia that has a bit more than a million people. you could easily gather a few conference rooms of a few thousand people and get some more MP's aligned to you.

Vor 4 Monate
Billy Wong
Billy Wong

@ScienceDan Therefore the US presidential election 2020 looks stupid in outsider eyes too. When we are fighting, struggling, or even dying for democracy, you guys ruin the election by postal votes?? Postal voting is wrong. The widespread denial of such concern by both politicians ad their supporters in US is disgusting.

Vor 7 Monate
GizmoMaltese
GizmoMaltese

That's not a real concern. It's not practical to force people on a large scale to vote in front of someone who is coercing them. And as someone said, allowing you to change your vote up to the last minute solves this problem. Moreover, absolute anonymity is more of a problem than some virtue of our system. No matter how secure a system is there will be some way to flip the votes and there's no way for me to verify that my vote was recorded accurately. Being able to verify your vote with your private key solves that.

Vor 8 Monate
Christian Cordoba
Christian Cordoba

for me... phone voting only works for small things.. like very localized policies or municipal referendums.... the rest still need a proper place to be cast for better safety..

Vor year
Easy Gamer
Easy Gamer

FBI agents: "You are here to test our new voting machines" Hackers: * proceed to elect doomguy as a new president *

Vor 2 Monate
S & L
S & L

It’s amazing stock exchanges and electronic banking work, dealing with all the same issues of compromised devices and trust. 🤔

Vor 3 Monate
Mt. Core
Mt. Core

What about anonymity? 🤓 What do you think the identification documents they require are for?

Vor 3 Monate
Martin Schmid
Martin Schmid

I feel like these days people make everything more complicated by wanting to use technology. The system works just fine with the volunteers and paper ballots, why would you change that?

Vor 2 Monate
OlderSnake
OlderSnake

Question: Why is the anonymity so important? If you DID let go of it, all these issues with electronic go away, as even if you DO manipulate the results somehow, you can always look up what your vote currently is on whatever platform, and if it's changed, you change it back. You then just classify votes as being protected under a similar protection as GDPR provides, and we should be good.

Vor 2 Monate
Deniss Denisson
Deniss Denisson

One of my favorite things ever is people just wanting to play doom on every concievable device.

Vor 2 years
That Man
That Man

My favorite thing ever is the 3 day memory span of the general public that gets us into trouble every year and is potentially ruining my daughters future yay

Vor year
Xcybitt
Xcybitt

Someone made doom in an ipod.

Vor 2 years
GhostZodick
GhostZodick

If you can run doom, it means you can run any arbitrary code on it. It's a proof that this whole system is completely hacked.

Vor 2 years
Master Sun8
Master Sun8

But can it run crysis?

Vor 2 years
The Serperior Master
The Serperior Master

@Jakyvir Torks It doesn't even need a screen. If it has a light, there is a way to play doom.

Vor 2 years
Wurthmann
Wurthmann

Almost all the problems that you pointed out in the electronic vote also happen in the physical vote and, almost always, the failure is aggravated.

Vor Monat
Wurthmann
Wurthmann

@Nikel Sorry to be repetitive, but all this work was very well done in the Brazilian voting system. You should check.

Vor 22 Tage
Nikel
Nikel

@Wurthmann It is mostly down to the ballots. Let's say a voter receives one ballot to vote vs a voter clicks on a provided PC to vote. If I was a voter, I would know my ballot was tampered i.e. they changed the image or there was a hole on it etc. If someone tampered the PC, I would never know. Was the software authentic? Would it register my vote? Should I shake the monitor so I know there is nothing weird installed there? You'll have to work harder to make people trust something they can't physically see

Vor 23 Tage
Wurthmann
Wurthmann

@Nikel There are no more targets, it depends on which print and digital vote we are talking about and which moment we are looking at, but in general the counts are always started in a granular way and at some point they are unified for the overall count. When would the attack take place? Because in the press this also happens and, in many cases, this last count is also done by machine. I can argue the opposite and say that it is much easier to manipulate printed voting because people can be bought, threatened, blackmailed, etc. I believe that voting the way it takes place in Brazil should be a model for the world, if possible, see how our process works and you will see how all the weaknesses of a printed vote were reduced using our system.

Vor 23 Tage
Nikel
Nikel

Both can be manipulated, yes, but manipulating physical voting is a lot harder than the digital one simply because there are more target you'll have to attack for the manipulation to works Plus, people would trust ballots they can physically see and touch more than a bunch of ones and zeroes

Vor 23 Tage
rugg1999
rugg1999

@Aleksandar source?

Vor 26 Tage
mrcid
mrcid

Tom Scott: “It is a lot harder to [cast doubt] with paper” Trump: “Hold my beer”

Vor Monat
Quintinohthree
Quintinohthree

Well, you know, half the doubt Trump cast was precisely because the US has a patchwork of election systems, with paper and electronic systems used interchangeably.

Vor Monat
Kova nova
Kova nova

To be fair it's vote red or you will regret it anyway and we're seeing proof of that in the current failures over in the US

Vor 3 Monate
alexandre silva
alexandre silva

He should do more research on how electronic voting works…

Vor Monat
Taran Van Hemert
Taran Van Hemert

I electronically upvoted this.

Vor 3 years
Meris
Meris

I downvoted this by paper. Still waiting for my confirmation letter from YouTube.

Vor 11 Monate
JmKrokY
JmKrokY

Cool

Vor 11 Monate
thfreakinacage
thfreakinacage

Anonymously too. We can't prove you did :P

Vor year
MrHamlet
MrHamlet

I did too for myself and several dead people.

Vor year
Ilan Yusuf
Ilan Yusuf

Are you sure about that?

Vor year
Lion_4K
Lion_4K

What if the electronic ballot also printed out the vote on a sealed glass box for you to see if it matches your vote and then dropped the paper vote on a standard ballot? That way we can get the trust and reliability of old ballots and the fast time to count votes of the electronic ballot. In case someone asks to have the votes recounted it can be done on the paper ballots.

Vor 3 Monate
Lion_4K
Lion_4K

@PeTTs0n88 but there are no issues with electric voting. Except distrust. And the paper votes attached to the electronic votes address exactly that issue.

Vor 2 Monate
PeTTs0n88
PeTTs0n88

@Lion_4K It's redundancy, it doesn't per definition eliminate the issues present with electronic voting. The redundancy is a nice safety measure though, don't get me wrong.

Vor 2 Monate
Lion_4K
Lion_4K

@PeTTs0n88 you will be able to have the results in way less time. You don't even need to count all the votes, you can just count like 1% of the paper votes to see if there is a pattern match for the electronic votes. Or 10% of the votes whatever. But the paper votes being present eliminate the lack of trust on the software part, adds a failsafe.

Vor 2 Monate
Lion_4K
Lion_4K

@PeTTs0n88 not at all. The ballots are already computers you just need to add a printer to them.

Vor 2 Monate
PeTTs0n88
PeTTs0n88

@Lion_4K Couldn't you just stick with just the paper ballots then? The cost of building, maintaining and securing the electronic machines on top of a paper system should be... quite expensive, no?

Vor 2 Monate
Matheus Theodoro
Matheus Theodoro

Please, don't come to Brazil. Here you can be arrested if say something against electronic voting. Some judges that cannot differentiate bits and bytes will punish you.

Vor Monat
Pedro Ivo
Pedro Ivo

Exactly

Vor Monat
TotallyCluelessGamer
TotallyCluelessGamer

I personally refuse to trust any system wherein the person voting doesn't place their vote directly into the ballot box.

Vor 3 Monate
Lime Mason
Lime Mason

This is why American elections are a joke.

Vor 3 Monate
Discord Devbot
Discord Devbot

what if the voting was made with internet trough the blockchain? For changing the code base of a blockchain more than 50% of the active users should change the code, which is practically impossible. This would be safe, anonymous and fast, for not say instant.

Vor Monat
Discord Devbot
Discord Devbot

@Serj Levonyuk CPF

Vor 28 Tage
Serj Levonyuk
Serj Levonyuk

How do you keep bots from voting?

Vor 28 Tage
ZF12
ZF12

"To break an electronic election, you don't actually need to break it, you just need to cast enough doubt on the result." *Laughs in 2020 USA*

Vor year
Deadpoppin
Deadpoppin

@Keenan Kersh i dont care lmao

Vor 3 Monate
Keenan Kersh
Keenan Kersh

@Deadpoppin I said that a year ago.

Vor 3 Monate
Deadpoppin
Deadpoppin

@Keenan Kersh false

Vor 3 Monate
Kevin H
Kevin H

Imagine when they said that a vote counting building had a "Water leak" and told everyone to get out, and then there was CCTV of a few people inside taking out hidden boxes full of votes, and then letting people back in to resume the count, only now Biden had 10,000 more votes. Ah good times. The most secure election in years! Oh, and when they didn't allow Republican vote watchers in to the building, and covered the windows so no one else could look in? Ah yes. Good times. Most secure election in history.

Vor 3 Monate
Vash Matrix
Vash Matrix

@W S hackers took down dominions machines before, not that I would trust their machines anyway. ID is worthless when it's not a secure system.

Vor 3 Monate
João Victor
João Victor

Did you make your research without bias from your country or, at least, research how it's done in the countries that uses this technology?

Vor 2 Monate
Cheesus Sliced
Cheesus Sliced

The only way electronic voting can ever be truly secure is through massive redundancy. An ID code for each voter, when you use a machine to vote it prints one copy of the ballot for each party on the ballot, as well as storing it to be counted by the computer. Each party group does their own count with their copies, as well as the computerised count, and if there is any discrepancy it's measured, and if sufficient enough to matter then a recount is ordered. Then the only way to tamper with it in a meaningful capacity would be to get to every machine used to count, in every party, and get all of them counting just the right amount of wrong.

Vor 3 Monate
Raphael Eisenberg
Raphael Eisenberg

What about blockchain?

Vor 14 Stunden
Higor _H_
Higor _H_

the question of distrust depends a lot, because if you don't trust the electronic voting machine, which has the same security as the big banks (in the case of Brazil) it doesn't make sense to trust a piece of paper more than the ballot box, even for the lay people

Vor Monat
MAX1MUS
MAX1MUS

@Lashy In fact, there is a representative of each party there. SO, YOU DON'T NEED A PRINTED PAPER. Thank you.

Vor 23 Tage
Lashy
Lashy

@MAX1MUS You are supposed to have a representative of your party with the ballot box at all times. That's your guarantee that all the votes reach the count properly.

Vor 23 Tage
Max Lennon
Max Lennon

@Deverly Fonseca But who's to say the paper isn't different from what the machine keeps track of electronically?

Vor 24 Tage
gray wind
gray wind

@Deverly Fonseca That just seems like paper ballots with extra steps, and if it's being printed then that leaves it open to potential fraud by means of disappearing ink.

Vor Monat
Deverly Fonseca
Deverly Fonseca

@MAX1MUS in the case proposed at Brazil, the voter could check the paper printed, and once he confirmed the information were accurate, the machine would then store the paper in a sealed box. (The Voter would't take the paper home)

Vor Monat
Roberto Jacob Balcells
Roberto Jacob Balcells

The German Supreme Court declared the electronic voting system unconstitutional since it does not comply with the transparency required by law, that is, the voting procedure can be verified by citizens at all stages without the need to have or have expertise (2009)

Vor 2 years
Guru Xara
Guru Xara

@Roberto Jacob Balcells They don't even use credit cards in Germany... It's a cultural choice, not a racional choice.

Vor Monat
Ashvl
Ashvl

@MarcioNSantos Do you know the european way of doing election ? It is possible.

Vor year
thelonelysnowelf (孤独な雪の妖精)
thelonelysnowelf (孤独な雪の妖精)

@Kat Foster I like to think I'm much more technologically competent and aware than the average person and blockchain still may as well be witchcraft to me.

Vor year
Kat Foster
Kat Foster

@Trygve Skogsholm right. Now explain Blockchain to an average person. I do not get it.

Vor year
Gargle Blargat
Gargle Blargat

@MarcioNSantos No, but it's dooable with hundreds, or thousands of citizens.

Vor year

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