Blaming the people talking about a game instead of the people making the game is some next level grade copium.

Epitome of gaslighting

Agreed... and a lot of the time the people talking about it are just saying what is already on everyone's mind. That's why it resonates so well with people. Talking about it more, and giving them feedback I feel is the way to go. They always like to say they are listening so now is their chance. As to whether they actually care or not though remains to be seen.

@christopherdsuza7531  Yep acting like Blizzard does no wrong is what lead to the games state prior.

It is pretty simple, the game is dying, his channel is dying, he has to create drama to survive.

"Unity didn't do anything wrong, it's people complaining the real problem!!!"

Its actually kind of amazing how he can for an hour and 44 minutes not answer a single question or come up with a single example to defend his arguments

i mean thats a little disingenuous, he was somewhat respectful for maybe the first 40 minutes until he started panda-ing all over the place

Exactly amazingly ridiculous

Bellular just rubs him up the wrong way, he made a hasty ranty video, and was put in the position of defending it. He bascially had no argument to make.

I honestly was sitting here listening being like "bruh"

"Can I ask you a question?"

Im always impressed with bald man's encyclopedic knowledge and how he can maneuver through what is essentially a child throwing a tantrum.

He worked in retail.

until he plays a game where he cant beat the boss then he becomes the child throwing a tantrum lul

Dude he can remember so much detail, its actually insane

business education has its benefits

​@@alexander1055truly a Crucible of Blood and Fire. It is known.

“I have nothing against the man” *proceeds to verbally berate him and say he’s full of bullshit any time he refers to him*

Yeah this was the thing that pissed me off the most. He absolutely feel some sort of way about Bellular, but he's too big of a pussy to just come out and say what everyone already knows. All his argument basically boiled down to, was claiming that HE felt like Bellular was snarky and condescending as if his word was the holy gospel that had to be followed solely because he said so, something I just can't see at all. He had no factual based arguments at all, it was purely a rant based on some sort of personal hate towards Bellular.

there is a reason why we have the saying "everything said before a 'but...' is meaningless

Fr idk how you all watched for more than 1 minute of him talking. It was instantly obvious what kind of guy he is.

@@Alliebutt Just because he's a way too emotional to make a good argument about it doesn't make him wrong. I feel similarly about bellular because he's WAY arrogant and he comes off as a real prick. I'm not a fan of panda either, but I do think his take on bellular is pretty fair and bellular's reaction to him proved it.

@@halcyonglaze1614 Nah most of his argument were on cavemen level.

The amount of times Panda asked Asmon a question, and then interrupted him the moment he starts answer, is INSUFERABLE omg

Its a common tactic of those with an IQ below room temperature

This is equally one of the most frustrating and fascinating conversations I have listened /watched just based on the fundamentals of making arguments alone. Asmon gave a masterclass on how to argue with someone who isn’t willing to move off shallow opinions. I don’t even know anything about WOW and I loved this video lol

I second that. It’s like hate watching the video I hate it whenever he keeps moving the goalposts and deflecting but I am curious on what he is going to … “and again that is not what I mean …..” on.

Exactly, at a certain point I was thinking why am I wasting my life listening to this pointless argument then realised I can learn from video by focusing the way Asmon is interacting with Chinglish.

Listening to Asmon calmly and rationally trying to explain to Panda why his stance is a giant L only for said individual to dodge every question and be saved by a literal internet blackout was truly an experience

Yep. It reminds me of destiny(the streamer) having to argue against conspiracy theorists, they just avoid answering any questions that disprove their bullshit theory.

He is actually in the top 5% of Australians in IQ score. Think about that...

@@LimpRichard where did you get that info from lmao

@@LimpRichard The shouting face tattoo man sounds like a genius for sure 🤦‍♂

@@Sasquatch_. he's a mess because he has tattoos???

Asmon is actually an A+ interviewer. Dude keeps his cool and knows exactly what points he wants to make. God damn.

Jesus christ, that was a hard watch. The amount of times Panda said "it's not personal to Bellular" then goes on to personally attack him multiple times lol

Literally, I almost stopped but I forced myself to, he just didn't wanna let asmon talk

Yes and also the foundation of his argument was Bellular making personal attacks against Blizzard Devs...

Seriously he keeps bitching about Michael making negative videos but doesn't mind that other people did that at the time apparently? Why was it a problem for Bellular to ride the algorithm but no one else? And Michael making personal attacks? What a joke, as this guy is going off about him himself including making up shit. And how dare you use your personal experience to identify with the creative team at Blizzard as you do commentary about that exact process. Jesus.

I watched Asmon interview Chinglish/PandaTV live on stream, and this guy just kept dodging any admission that he might be wrong by moving goalposts, shouting a lot, and trying to talk over the other person. His words come out as a chaotic jumble of emotions, and his entire strategy with communication is to drown out the other person with his low effort word salad. He muddies up definitions, and reduces the complexity of a problem down to a single dimension of "doing it for views". He tries to bait/threaten Asmon with social exclusion ("come on bro", "you're better than that", "are you serious") to make Asmon retract his points when Asmon tries to make him see his own contradictions and mixing up of fact and opinion. He also tries to manipulate and befriend using statements like "we both agree that...". He gets very nit-picky and pedantic in order to invalidate the other person, such as saying "you don't know that all players didn't like this change", or using outliers as examples, and denying trends by saying there's no official data for it. It's all very intellectually dishonest denial just so he can avoid being wrong. He doesn't know when to stop and how to make his points succinct. His word salad might also be an intentional tactic to exhaust his opponent because they have to spend a lot of cognitive energy to sift through his barrage of words, and could start making mistakes later on for him to pick up. He also likes to include a little disclaimer with every statement he makes, that he's not trying to be offensive/rude/slander etc. when the outcome of his statement make the other person look bad. He must think he's so clever by exploiting people's goodwill in conversations, and don't realize people let him go because they don't want to pick him apart. Or maybe people have picked him apart before but he never really learned anything and only made him more bitter about how brilliant and underappreciated he is as a good person. All he's trying to prove is that he's the most loyal Blizzard fan there is out there and his loyalties don't shift like the clout chasers. They do it for the views but he doesn't, and he's likely bitter about the fact that he's so loyal and yet he's not finding success over these disloyal losers. Why else would he target a more popular streamer like Bellular and single him out as incompetent? Or call Asmon out for being popular and thus not able to know how it is for normal players? You can't tell me it's for selfless justice across the universe. All he wants to do is rile people up to attack other streamers because he probably thinks they deserve it for "cheating the system". This is the definition of scrub mentality: to define your own rules and believe others need to play along with them. His ideas basically boil down to trust the system, players/streamers don't know best, devs should know best. When Asmon says community criticism has been taken in, Chinglish/PandaTV moves the goalpost by saying community is not one person and therefore personal opinion doesn't matter, and therefore community opinion doesn't matter by extension; it's clearly an argument that makes no logical sense. He also went ahead and blamed players for not playing well and claimed that balance is good all around, and a blanket "git gud" to every player (implying he's above all this) has never been a statement that gets an internet audience on your side. Maybe being a streamer and spending too much time on the internet and defining your entire identity with an MMO is a bad thing. The issues are so trivial and inconsequential and yet people like Chinglish/PandaTV blow it way out of proportion. I also don't know why Bellular had to respond in the way he did, with a hair-trigger nerd rage response. Just ignore and block people you don't like on the internet and move on. (This was a comment I made in the thread, just moving it over.)

As an Australian myself… I am embarrassed. He legit got his argument torn apart and didn’t want to admit it.

I think as a human being it’s embarrassing. Australian, Japanese, or what have you. It’s simply childish.

Thankfully he doesn't represent Australians, so I think you're safe ;D

He just needs to never debate again. He fundamentally lacks understanding here.

Good lord this guy really knows how to make himself look bad. No discussion etiquette at all. At first I thought I would like him, I was wrong. He's the type that won't genuinely admit he's wrong.

Listening to Panda refuse to take his L on stream was ridiculous.

his brain straight up deep fried itself with all the cognitive dissonance

Watching him trying to convince anyone that PvE balance is good was really funny, he was also banning people asking for his logs or pointing out that he only raids Normal.

True but asmond got corrected by Esfand and Asmond wouldn't take an L. I think it's just streamer ego lol

If a negative video does well with the audience, it probably meams the audience feels negatively about the subject in the first place. How do people not understand that the reason negative videos are "popular" only when the audiences veiw on the aubject is also negative. Negative videos on elden ring got ratio'd and there are plenty of other games i could quote; along with plenty of positive videos that got good or bad reception when they align with veiwer's opinions.

Idk this panda guy but his take is horrible. Bellilar is not that egotistical at all. Panda seems to be

I can't believe the patience Asmon had. Im 30 minuets into this and I'm yelling at Panda to shut up.

Man I really wonder why Bellular makes negative videos when the game sucks and Blizzard has scandals and why he makes positive videos when the game is good and Blizzard makes good decisions. There must be some sinister motivation.

He himself said that he heard Belluar say he makes videos based on the emotions of the crowd, appealing to what the people are feeling. Tho it seems to me that his hate for Belluar goes down to small bits of reliability. Belluar makes games, and he acts arrogant talking in a matter of fact way. He also claims to be a dev and is different. Belluar not being humble like him is the problem. Also Belluar riding the negative waves when they happen, that too of course.

I usually like watching these longer videos, but this conversation was anything but healthy

Panda: "No offense but ... *says something offensive*." Also Panda: "I'm so shocked people were offended!"

"Blizzard is afraid to try things with the game because they get criticized." That's absolutely untrue. Blizzard has boldly tried things, over and over, that the players didn't like. Criticism and stopping playing are the only things that have made them think of the players recently. Telling us we're wrong for criticizing what sucks is the hallmark of the kinds of fanboys that made Blizzard tone-deaf and out of touch.

People who argue like this guy are the worst, they don't listen, they interrupt, they ignore or dismiss counterpoints, refuse to answer fair questions, get louder when they aren't getting their way, it's the most frustrating thing to listen to. Asmon's calm questions and demeanor being washed over with emotion and stubborness irks my soul.

people who double down, really are something else lol

I agree, but at the same time I appreciate how he wasn't getting hostile or butthurt about it like some people debating online would

Literally copium. He’s upset because he knows it’s true.

@@drabkebabnot hostile probably because it’s Asmon and he knows it’s live. He would look like a fool. But anyone else he would probably be hostile

This was very frustrating to listen to.

I just subscribed because of how Asmongold handled this situation. class act!

Panda dodged so much that he could probably beat any souls game with the same number of dodges in his playthrough as the number of dodges presented in this video

A situation which resulted entirely from Panda deciding, unprompted, to call out a bigger creator over the manner of his content creation, instead of simply disagreeing with his opinions. How interesting that he attacked Bel over doing things "for the views" and ends up in an interview with Asmongold.

Like, I by no means thought asmon was not intelligent. But wow his professionalism, intelligent responses and actual politeness was really refreshing and impressive. I’m not sure it was a productive use of his time but at least he tried 😂

Bellular doesn’t even need to respond to anything at this point, letting panda talk just helped him more than anything could have.

this guy is an example of what happens to you when you refuse to let a game go after playing daily for almost 20 years. people give Asmon shit for quitting the game but this Panda guy is what he would have become if he didn’t.

As gay as it sounds, Bellular is just higher caliber of creator than Panda. Which, it looks like, makes him mad. Or the fact that Bellular still has at least some hair to comb over. Anyway, stay mad chrome dome.

@@resee9856 My impression was that this was 1000% personal for the dude for whatever reason, so when he said he has no harsh feelings towards Bellular, that's bullshit

​@chazdoit 100% it was personal. He couldn't back up a single argument that he had and kept going back to "I think Bellular thinks". Oh, you can read minds now? Fucking good for you! Nah, the whole "Bellular is smug and thinks he's smarter than everyone" is actually him projecting. He thinks that's the case because Bellular is smarter, but smarter than him specifically, and because of that he's feeling inferior and attacked.

Yep, the guy is just in copium not want to admit the company already ruined the game and he don't want lose 20 years of his life

I think it has less to do with letting the game go, and more to do with making a game an intrinsic part of your identity If he still enjoys the game and values the time he spends in it, he should keep playing it. The problem arises because he’s become so personally attached and invested into the game that he takes any criticism of the game as criticism of an aspect of himself

This conversation is so frustrating.I hate when people push one point and don't listen to any arguments, don't address them, just push one argument you have or switch conversation completely when you are losing the argument.

Zack, your patience is on a divine level. It is incredible how difficult it is for him to say "algorithm is positive when game is good, algorithm is negative when game is bad"

“I don’t think him calling devs brain dead apes is good.” Asmon: Has he called them that? Well I’m not sure so I don’t want to quote it. Bro you’ve quoted it 5 times already… he is constantly just arguing in circles.

It's so funny to see Asmon trying to get him to realize what's the core of this whole situation but he doesn't get it

The fact that Bellular is saying anything positive or negative about Wow shows he actually gives a shit with what direction Blizz goes in.

Panda: "It's not personal." Also Panda: "I think, he acts snarky, like he could solve all the problems just because he's a developer."

Panda: "I just made a one take .. it was barely 3 minutes long. Take what I said with a grain of salt. I didn't do any research beforehand." Also Panda: "He absolutely did all of that. I thought we were going to have common sense here. Everyone's saying it."

you forgot the part where "and thats not what I meant"

Panda: "im not sitting heredefending my point of view" Also Panda 5 Sec later: "but I don't think what im saying is that extreme!"

We are now talking in circles lets move on😴

I'm not playing dragon flight cus they PERMA BANNES my 14 year old account cus I was using bad language. Even though It was the best time I had and made so many friends, increased my win rate in bgs by 40%

If someone wants to feel infuriated this is the perfect video. Nothing like someone with a dumb argument dodging questions for 1 hour.

I think the only thing this guy proved , is how treasured Bellular is in the community.

I appreciate Asmon's efforts to guide the discussion in a way that would allow Panda to reach his own understanding of how the state of the game influences the perception of positive and negative videos. Panda couldn't arrive at that realization, not trying to listen but instead doubled down lol

Hilarious how many times Asmon asked Panda why the algorithm was pushing the hate train, but Panda never actually figured it out. Edit: He kind of caught it at 51:00, but then lost it soon after. Impressed Asmon stayed patient for most of the hour before getting a chance to outright push his point (even if Panda failed to figure it out), and at 52:30, Asmon FINALLY gets his point across when given a chance to speak. You love to see it. (I mean Panda never "got" it, but mad props to Asmon.)

Good God, this guy is insufferable. How Asmon kept a cool demeanor and didn't tell him to give him some space and actually listen to himself is impressive. Patience of a saint.

Panda is the definition of somebody who needs to listen to learn instead of listening to respond

Hes banned on youtube lol

He looks kind of like Adam22. Or is it just me? I'm not trying to insult him or anything btw.

He doesn't even listen at all. Just waits for his turn to talk.

Don't expect much from a guy with drawings on his empty head.

I almost had a Aneurysm, poor Asmon my respects to your patience.

The reason why I watch bellular from time to time is because he actually says what I've been thinking for a long time. I wouldn't watch him if I disagreed entirely with everything he s saying about the game. I'd just go play the game. To be honest, I think Bellular speaks very highly of Dragonflight even if I can't see it the same way he does. To me it's still a soft, fomo-driven game set on an cute-emo background that doesn't reflect the game I used to love. And yet, he speaks highly of the expansion every time I hear him talk about it, EVEN in the video where he's talking about its issues.

Zack, you are based and this video just garnered me a whole new level of respect for you.

It's painful when you argue with someone who uses their feelings instead of logic. And they think their feelings are facts. And the worst thing is they believe they are being logical.

This was one of the most painful videos to watch. Panda had zero idea what he was talking about and couldn’t stop interrupting Asmon.

and was not answering questions ... whenever asmon asks a question, his answer is to ask a question back or say : BUT MY POINT IS

@@Oxmosh exactly

AND AGAIN!!!

Exactly, I couldn't watch more than 20 minutes, and it definitely was not because of Asmon. The guy (Panda) had a shit take to start with, comes on, won't let Asmon talk, dodges questions, calls Bellular all kinds of things but bashes Bellular for doing that do devs (which he rarely does directly, more as a whole team). I watch some Bellular, some good content, some is not but I immediately knew this guy is making things personal against Bellular, maybe he is trying to make a name for himself. People stay stupid stuff on live streams all the time, this is one of them, but he chose to defend and double-down on it than retract his statement and apologize. It's a Pyromancer moment for sure, just with less rage. Maybe Panda should move to YouTube if it's so ez to make content. It also helps prevent 3-minute shit takes.

If hes wrong he says that is what im saying in the first place.

It's kinda crazy that Panda is so unaware as to why he's falling off.

Thanks for respecting Panda's desire for complete positive and negative ambiguity with the title 👍

asmon is a true proffessional to stay calm on a so UNPOLITE person

Panda getting in the call hurt his argument more than any reaction ever could.

Bellular has expressed concern about what Chris Metzen and Mike Morhaime knew about the sexual misconduct while they were leaders at Blizzard. He has said multiple times that they had to have know about it to some extent and they didn’t take action, thus neither of them can be fully taken off the hook.

"I have nothing against him personally. I just hate him for being snarky and smug." Uh yeah. Sure, man.

Then says he wasnt talking only about him, but proceeds to only target him.

Think a lot of people (even in the comments here) just write off Bellular as disingenuous, either being a Blizz shill or a Blizz hater. Having come across his content and live streams, Bellular just comes off as someone who wants Blizz to succeed while giving criticisms either for or against what Blizz is doing. Honestly, I sometimes thinks he gives Blizz a little too much benefit of the doubt, but that’s me coming off of years of Blizz willingly or unwillingly ignoring tons of feedback in testing phases for their games (which in recent history gets played off as “oh we didn’t notice these issues, wish testers caught that!”).

I can’t even finish the video because he’s just repeating himself and getting no where

@@danielstewart7611 Never seen his streams, but this is my opinion on him as well. The people who call him disingenuous have clearly never watched him or already hate him.

This whole discussion that made made Panda the whole circus could have been avoided if he admitted he dislikes/hates Bellular. There is nothing wrong to hate or dislike something or someone.

Can I just say, whenever someone says something they don't like and its too critical its considered "complaining" but the reality is people are giving their critique. They are legit showing where the situation could improve or where its lacking. They are not saying this game sucks what I hear is hey maybe they could bring back the awesome dynamics this game had "remember back when it was humans vs orcs?! Remember the art renderings? With awesome dragons like Sindragosa and bad--- like Sourfang or Thrall?!" its not a complaint especially if its true.

Summary: 1) Panda is really jealous that bellular is making a game of his own. 2) Panda thinks Chris Metzen should be in prison for sexual harassment.

3) Panda needs to take care of his mental health.

Asmon: You could hire someone from fiver to fix the problems in wow. Panda: [Laughs] That we can agree on. Asmon: So do you agree that Bellular [who’s an actual game developer] can fix it then? Panda: No. Absolutely not. … It’s clear that this guy just doesn’t like Bellular.

I envy Asmon's patience to talk like that for soooo long to that guy going in circles

Your patient with this man is incredible...

Zack does such a great job staying on point even after being interrupted constantly.

Honestly, idk how he keeps track of all his point without writing them down

It was frustrating to listen to Panda constantly dodge and interrupt and yell, but also kind of impressive to learn from Asmons debate technique

​@@mrx3009he has way too much patience! 😂

@@mrx3009 yea was pretty passionate about his argument I suppose. Interesting to see their takes.

Asmongold was going in circles and bringing back up old points.. huh?? Panda was the calm one getting his point across while getting interrupted. Bruh it's like we watched a different video

@Asmongold I may be wrong, but you don't strike me as the kind of person who really cares one way or another about how some rando on the internet feels about you or your content. After saying that, and watching this video, I would like to express my admiration and respect for a level of patience, understanding, and desire to help someone learn which you showed in this video.

I absolutely love how tactful Azmon handled this situation, it's freaking insane to see! ♥

My biggest issue is he has a problem with bellular because he critiques the devs like literally every gamer/streamer/content creator but he actually has developed a game so it magically becomes snarky. I don’t see how bellular critiques are snarkier than the way asmon, preacher, etc critique dev decisions.

BRUTAL. hard video to watch. Props to Asmon for sitting through this.

Pandas argument made my brain hurt. We all have this friend whos argument makes no sense they cannot be rreasoned with and will die on their hill. My God that was painful. Kudos to Asmon for just calmly crushing this guy with logic.

Imagine shilling for the company to the point where you blame the state of the game on negative journalism…

He sounds like the government

@@Macncheesee He sounds like a typical Australian politician when they are losing.

@@MarioLeCarrenah, it’s not just aus brah

He probably works for the ccp. Asmongod doing what he does best….stayed calm and dismantles the communist Australian.

God thank you for being so good at picking apart arguments

asmon's patience is incredible, man loved cutting him off.

So I tried to give this guy a chance here and what I took from that is: “I’m trying to make positive content about the game I like but I’m getting less and less engagement”

I've been following Bell for years, maybe 3+ expansions, and he has been hyper-critical of certain things in the game... I don't recall him ever giving a personal attack on a dev. He's also a HUGE lore and game fan of WOW. His criticisms are valid (imo) and justified when the game shifts and they have fixed issues.

What a patient person Asmon is. (Yoda’s voice)

i love how Asmon went from how to cook a 2$ steak to cooking a panda for almost 2 hours...

Outstanding analogy 😂

This is genius

this better get more likes

this tells you how thick it was....🤣

Bro... fucking legendary

Man, that "Panda" guy must be REALLY REALLY buff to keep moving the goalpost during the entire argument...

Gotta give credit to asmon incredible hability to stay calm on a dude that cant hear him

Respect to asmon here. Really well managed.

Straight up defending the company and even putting the blame on players, without any sound argument. The perfect customers. Companies would love to clone him.

This reminds me of arguing with my ex girl friend where she was 100% wrong and she was trying to do everything in her power to be right. I'm kind of sad that this was my first time hearing of this guy. His first impression for me is shot.

😂 relatable

For someone that doesn’t have a personal problem with bellular, he sure does have a personal problem with bellular

Exactly this

Jealousy is a hell of a drug. He’s just mad he’s doing essentially the same thing, making wow content, but then has to buy a wife. Meanwhile bellular, making wow content, gettin married like a normie. LMFAO.

@@k00msi feel like a big part of it is that he brings up game dev and he’s jealous he has never learned game dev

He’s just mad that Bellular had better relevance to hot wow topics than him and capitalized on it. This is what any business in the whole world is doing. If people can relate to something then there will be content made by individuals talking about that something.

Man Asmon, the respect I got for you for this video

This reminds me of the type of arguments I had in my 20s when everyone was drunk and incoherent 😅

This video really shows how some people are so invested in a videogame they will do anything but move on

At this point I’m convinced wow players enjoy the drama around the game more than the game. It’s just been too many years of the same cycle.

I wish I had the patience Asmon has cause I don’t even play WoW but listening to the other alone was frustrating me. 🤣

I love watching Asmon interviewing people and asking them "So logically explain the problem/issue in detail", to have the person getting interviewed become flustered because they don't have a logical point, only an emotional one.

Just like politics

After listening to the whole vid, i came to the conclusion that Panda just doesn't like Bellular, just because!? Panda kept rolling off different 'reasons', but kept getting shot down by Asmon. But what i don't think Panda realised is that sometimes, you can just dislike someone for not much reason at all. As an example, you see a famous person appear on tv, "Ugh, i can't stand that guy!" someone asks you why? And its fine to reply: "I don't know, its just something about him/her that seems off!". And thats it, no further explaination needed lol and everyone relates to this

He did though, if you were listening. His basic claim is that Bellular is smug, which he is, and he has an ego problem, which he does. Panda made a strategic mistake by not being specific with his criticism or argument, and going all over the place with the topic.

imagine him posting a complaint to IT department and his massage only says "hey your system is negative" . no details whatsoever

Asmon reminds me of Destiny (the political commentator/gamer) in some ways. They both have a good faith approach to these discussions.

I know nothing about PandaTV and he seems like a a genuine dude IRL but I can say for sure that in regards to Warcraft he is the type of player that makes me not want to play the game. He has a high level of copium regarding WoW issues and just because he found it easy to gear then it's easy for everybody. I invite Panda if he ever sees this to do a gearing guide if it's so easy....share the knowledge.

I can’t believe the entire call with panda is just him chasing his own tail.. with no answers lmao Asmon did a good job at hosting a debate tho

After watching the whole video, Panda is letting his feelings and pride interfere with his judgement. He doesn't like Bellular's snarky way of talking and he clearly doesn't value the insight he has on the inner workings of developing a game. Bellular clapped back because Panda attacked his credibility. That is a large part of what makes his audience listen to his perspective on industry news, and even while riding the algorithm, he will offer insight. He was ahead of Asmon on FFXIV and did not ham it up as hard as other creators did. I can tell that Panda is frustrated because he likes the state WoW is in currently, but can't understand why other people don't. His assumption is that content creators are making bad faith arguments, but casuals are not just going to flock back to a game they have a sour impression of. His livelyhood depends on Blizzard at this point, so I'm not surprised he isn't willing to back down. He needs more eyes on retail and as many positive videos about WoW as he can get. He argues poorly like my brother though. He has the debate skills of a modern politician 😅

Man i never thought someone could be dumber than me. This Panda guy even surpassed me

The glaring difference is that in league, for example, you can play (first and foremost and not wait hours in queues) whatever you want and it's to your teammates to decide if they want to risk it or not. And they have to pay the price. I prefer this system, even if it translates in common "hostage" scenarios. And I'm not even talking about offmeta stuff. Just the last pick who picks just another AD champ into a double tank enemy comp.

This was painful to listen to. Big W for Asmon to remain this calm all the way through

Billionaire*

Panda is a legit warrior. Every question = /cast shield wall.

Panda is so much in denial that it's freaking hilarious. Just freaking admit that you were wrong. There's nothing bad in that! Everyone make mistakes and that's ok.

More props to Asmongold on being able to handle someone who constantly talks over him and interrupts constantly

Asmon has some jedimonk level patience🙏

idk if it would fix anything but imo they could just put a debuff on the player that left or disconnected for longer than 10 mins (play during a thunderstorm at your own risk) mid-late key that was a week long that prevents them from running any keys. it's a VERY harsh punishment for leavers/key hostage takers and i honestly think it would deter a lot of them from doing it in the first place.

I envy Asmon's patience

Holy crap the longer you listen to Panda the easier it is to hate his perspective.

Ironically, the 3 minute of uncut ranting was more convincing than the 1hour+ advocating for a position that got weaker and weaker.

Dude.. I didnt even know about this guy but the longer the video went on I felt myself absolutely disgusted by the shit he was saying.. how can you even think this is a "not that crazy of a point" lol.

I completely disagree

​@@orb8540Trueeeeee! He's finding worse and worse points

Honestly, it's just sad to see a grown man overcome by emotion. I'm sure he's prolly just stressed out about some irl shit and misplacing it. I'm sure he will look back at this in regret...

I'm not going to say I know that most people hate excessive grind - I think this is true from my own experiences and logic, as well as friends, but I cannot say its definitely true. I can say that there is a big difference between having a chase goal and just doing the same thing over and over because you didn't get the thing you wanted. I've played Elden Rings, I've played in hardmode raids. These are difficult, they require you to perfect your play. This is great. I've also played korean grind MMOs. These are boring as hell, even if there is technically something to do. I don't agree with Panda's arguement for boring grinds. I do agree that the game shouldn't be seasonal, but I would solve that with difficult content that requires skill, not grinding for something.

This dude is funny af. Imagine watch him now.

As someone who just stopped watching hours long debate content on YouTube this almost two hour video was an unexpected relapse into it and confirms I do not miss long form debate content.

An hour and 44 minute case study on why you should never EVER be a One Game Andy. Don't do it.

Being a 1 game person is fine. But not understanding people behaviour > complaining about said behaviour (gatekeeping) and not listening as to why it would be happening is not healthy. I have not played dragonflight but to my understanding you only need to do +16 for maximum rewards, everything else higher is for fun and leaderboard/bragging. I forgot the discussion everything before the M+ and bellular stuff already LOL so much topic jumping.

@@Newchaos190 gatekeeping is good. Being stupid isn't.

He's more of a one genre Andy, though, as he did mention that he played other MMOs. He definitely has spent the bulk of his time on WOW, though. That's for certain.

@@Newchaos190 If you're not aiming for KSH what are you even running Mythics for lol

panda is representing every wow andy that keeps defending the game atm. Every single one of them argues exactly like he does. I remember thinking like panda does when i used to be a wow andy but man all you need is to experience a good mmo (for me it was ff14) to realize how out of touch wow andys and the devs are. Every single one of them are clinging on to name of world of warcraft and past memories to justify this shit.

Generally Bellular makes positive videos about WoW, and is a fan of the game. If there's something bad about the game it needs to be called out. You can't really blame content creators for issues with the game.

Zack is always right on everything true and real.

Listening to Panda was painful but it was hilarious at the same time and Asmon is due to receive Sainthood for entertaining this guy's nonsensical argument.

i feel like the conversation got better near the end. The argument over Bellular was increasingly frustrating to listen to... but the discussions about intricacies of universally pleasing an audience with fixes and responsibilities of devs versus the community brought up interesting points on both sides.