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A pilot's perspective.
UPDATE to the Update from AvWeekly https://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/faa-reviews-enhanced-max-flight-test-data?utm_rid=CPEN1000000907970&utm_campaign=18947&utm_medium=email&elq2=7b24c0887f88426098a9f69399830ffc%20FAA%20Reviews%20Enhanced%20MAX%20Flight-Test%20Data
Glad to learn a bit from you all guys. I'm not a pilot, but have the benefit of reading your comments one month after written, after seeing other videos, and explanations about the preliminary report and graphics of recordings of the FDR of ET302. AoA is not considered a prime input for commercial flights by Boeing. It is used for orientation and stall prevention were basic control is still held by pilots. Boeing did not bother in creating fail safe AoA indication, nor software criticism of MCAS inputs presumably because it considers any malfunctions dealt with the "Ruaway Stabilizer" memory item procedure. MCAS is only active without AutoPilot. So pilots are in control. If any components related to MCAS are strange or malfunction just turn it of through the established procedure (STAB TRIM CUTOFF). ET302 pilots did the procedure, but not exactly as prescribed. They did not touch AutoThrust till the fatal end and went overspeed. This overspeed made it difficult to manually pitch the non trimmed aircraft. Pilots did CUTOFF the Stab Trim electrical command. They did not try trimming to at least a more neutral position before CUTOFF. They probably knew about previous problems and the Boeing/FAA Airwothiness Directive published after the Lion Air accident. They hasted to CUTOFF and tried with some success to maintain attitude pulling the yokes with force. They did not manage to manually trim. Speed too high, altitude too low, too much force needed it seems. FDR shows recorded short electrical nose-up commands presumed from the switches on the yokes. Hence it's presumed pilots reengaged electrical control of the stab trim agaist procedure. Here I can't understand what happened. If they opted out of CUTOFF to enable manual command of the electrical trim why just such short commands? Then, if the opted and acted reengaging the Stab Trim, they knew it could go weird again. MCAS commanded a fatal lengthy nose-down, while pilots desperately exerted a lot of force pulling the yokes, but did not try to electrically command nose-up from the strab trim switches on the yokes. It seem anti intuitive. I feel there may be something else here. All of this is presumed by reading recordings of the FDR. We suppose recordings imply this or that pilot action on the controls. What if there was some other problem like a short or a bad contact misinterpreted as proper pilot command? I can understand Boeing failing to proper iron out MCAS design on the assumption pilots would just switch it off if needed. Many pilots believe it's a simple known straightforward procedure. I can understand pilots beeing surprised with a strange plane behaviour they don't feel well trained for stealing precious time at the critical moments. I don't understand why they neglected airspeed and why they did not intuitively commanded trim to nose-up as they needed more and more force to hold pitch attitude after opting out of CUTOFF. https://www.instagram.com/p/BwDcflHJMXZ/
@Andrew Kwayu Best idea i heard
@Andrew Kwayu *Not a bad idea, although it's no more complicated than any other Older 7x7s,* and the procedure is very simple. Just do what you were trained to do in ALL 7x7 Boeings, Old and New. Just turn the auto trim OFF, and fly with your muscles, and don't make up Lies, like the Mcas magically grew FINGERS and Fliped the Toggle Switches back ON. Safety is a Product of the Person/PersonS/Nation's Human Charactor. *If you Lie, you Die !!!* i am korean, and have Nothing to Brag about my Countrymen's safely record or Attitude. But can show you what difference human Charactor/Integrity/Honesty can make. These examples are NOT Exceptional or Isolated examples, but very typical "results". Guess which is Korean and Which is Japanese. Youtube *" Osaka Touge Drift HQ "* *" KoreaCarShow BMW speed accident Gimhae Airport in Korea "*
@Sandy Lee yer, this plane should be operational in US only! The only place with capable pilots to operate a complex plane! Tell that to Boeing!
@euroblues2 *REALLY ??? i didn't know you could turn off Mcas separately?* Is there a SWITCH marked Mcas on /off that you can flip? I thought the investigators said the Pilots Fliped the Toggle Switches for the Auto trim cut off (which completely cuts off the power to the electric motors on the jackscrew that pitches the Horizontal Stabilizer up and down),that disables ANY Automation of the Stabilizer trim, forcing the pilots to set trim manually with those trim wheels. According to the investigators, Pilots did this and recovered Control, but then they decided to turn the Auto Trim On *AGAIN !!!* This is like seeing your car hit 100mph, when you set your cruise control to 65mph. So you turn off the Cruise Control and bring the speed back to 65mph, then you turn the Cruise Control back *ON AGAIN,* and the car accelerate to 100mph once more, and you *DON'T Turn off the Cruise Control off immediately,* but fight with it like you stupidly did before, with already faded brakes, and Crash !!!
Juan, great videos! New Subscriber!! Why don't the pilots simply engage the auto-pilot to stop the MCAS input?
LOL.....9.4K likes.........170 TROLLS
Engineers have been trying to obviate the pilots for a LONG time. C.I.P. my 62 year old Tripacer. No fly by wire wizardry on it. All mechanical linkages. One of ‘em linkages is a springed interconnect betwixt the ailerons and the first 20% of rudder pedal movement. So you can fly hands off, and correct a cupla degrees of heading with the rudder pedals only, but the damn plane is going to bank. So my non-flying wife sits there glaring at me because she thinks I can’t keep the plane straight and level
I read that early 707 pilots trained crosswind landings in Ercoupes. Non rudder-pedaled ‘Coupes, with their trailing gear, are landed crosswind in the crab. Spooked me the first time I did it. The ‘Coupe has a 25 mph crosswind component.
Don't sweat the whack-a-doodles Juan, you do a great job on these reports. I appreciate the time you take to do this.
What a colossal cluster. This is what happens when bean counters get to build an airliner,
This guy is an actual pilot and that idiot DJSAVIATION has hundreds of thousands of subs. And all he does it take a news story and repeat it and shows footage from a week he spent spotting at LAX. I’ve been watching this guy since he had footage of the galloping ghost crash.
Your videos are very informative. I think it may be narrow focused to think of the MCAS system’s purpose being to prevent stalls. The words making up this acronym seem to suggest its purpose is to assimilate the flying characteristics of the 737 aircraft, and therefore bypass the need for pilot training on the MAX. This also seems to suggest the reason why many pilots were unfamiliar with it as that was the intention - to work incognito in the background with the auto pilot system in most cases not even announcing to the pilot when its inputs were being activated.
Why didnt they redesign the landing gear to compensate for the groundheight problem rather then moving the engines inboard which ultimately led to the creation of this MCAS system? seems like it wouldve been a simpler solution.... Isnt most of the changes youve noted from the FAA on MCAS predominantly sftware changes rather than hardware? That vane seems a rather vulnerable if not delicate part of the system...like a clogged pitot situation....
tHE FRENCH AGENCY HAS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. tHEY ARE BIASED FOR EUROPEAN AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION...
I can't believe it's may 16 and raining in northern california........ I THOUGHT IT NEVER RAINS IN CALIFORNIA?
Could one state that the air frame around the tail wing and jack screw suffer more loads over a set period of time verses the original 737 due to new engine placement, with more movement of these components than the original setup.if so would these parts have different inspection times to the old model for fatigue.
I was a travel agent from 1986 until August 2001 (I actually left the industry voluntarily just before 9/11) and have always been drawn to travel industry related things, especially plane crash details and investigations. I recently stumbled upon your channel while watching 5 year (non)updates on MH370 and subscribed immediately. (side note: I didn't see any videos in your list on MH370 - do you have an opinion on this that you'd like to share with us??) You explain the technical aviation details in such a way that anyone can at least understand the basics, which is a tremendous help. Thank you for continuing to do updates on these tragic crashes.
It's not so redundant when you're only taking data off of one sensor...
In other words: Blind eye by USA to compete with EU.
Jackscrews thermal expansion factors are tested in a wrong temperature range , mainly in USA climate temp range . Hot climates temperature differencial on the ground where temp might be in up of 40+C° then freezing on high altitude down to 50-C° combined with poorly lubrication with grease not compatible with hot climate (where it melts and liqufies & runs , drips off the Jackscrew & the assembly leaving it " DRY like a chock " ) .This render the Jackscrews so thigtly squized by the assembly that it becomes unoperable even by brutal hand force of cranking trim wheels. Engineering of the Jackscrews is faulty not taking under cosideration the temperature variations and lack of proper lubrication of the Jackscrew's assembly . Lubrication should be automatic by the tubing pumping oil right into the nuts assembly under pressure periodicly with synthetic lubricant that stays liquid in very cold temperatures . It is not aerodynamic force that makes Jackscrews so hard to turn as much as Jackscrews being not properly lubricated & squized tight by extreme cold temperatures up on higher altitudes. Jackscrews design should be upgraded to consider those climate temperature variables & insure automatic lubrication . Also the termal expansion and contraction of Jackscrews and nut assembly should be same , made from the same metals with equal termal expansion factors. Jackscrews electric motors are over stressed to the point of failure trying to turn the extremely tightly squized the Jackscrews by nut assembly. Boeing must insure that Jackscrews are operating freely in a broad spectrum of temperature and stay lubricated at the ALL temp range . There was already the crash that involved Jackscrew's tread getting striped completely from the shaft , Can't recall in which air crash was that the factor leading to total failure of the Jackscrew. That was mainly due to poor lubrication maintenance of the Jackscrew.
Copliments to you for the way you present this! Very solid and informational without judgement. Bravo!
Finally! I've been searching for am explanation re mcas situation. It's been 40 years since I got my ppl but have tried to keep up with improvements. So far the explanations are either too vague or way too complex....you strike a great balance so THANK YOU! This crazy old lady on the lake in upstate SC has subscribed and well on my way to being addicted! Journey mercies.
Welcome aboard Rebekah!
Good guy, fine tech material.
My analysis is: - The source of problems Boeing seems to be having, is not essentially technical. - It 's in the governance. - Muilenberg is CEO + Chairman + President. Since 2015. - He basically oversaw or authorized 737 MAX first flight in Jan 2016. The 737 MAX series gained FAA certification in March 2017; which he also oversaw (& we're made to understand that FAA, for various reasons, delegated most of the certification work to Boeing itself). - This one man show doesn't make sense for such a big company. - Weak FAA oversight aside (how could they give basically one man safety decision making responsibility?), there doesn't seem to be any oversight mechanisms either within Boeing itself to check final decision-making - technical or otherwise - even at the very helm of the business.
I hate to sound naive but, aside from the pitch up moment that the MCAS was designed for on the Max 737 during take off; can pilot's hand fly the aircraft upon take-off and landing like they did in the past?
Great updates. I hope you can take my questions. Is there a time when too late to turn off MCAS? is completely nose down beyond the envelope of no return to regain control? You may not know, but in your expert opinion, why did Ethiopian pilot or F/O turn on MCAS after turning off? Love your stuff. Enjoy your in depth analysis. Most informative. I'm a frequent flyer.
Juan, I was a mechanic for United. I left when it got really bad after 9/11. I still follow aviation because it's in my blood. When Lion Air crash happened, I knew the MCAS was troublesome and buggy after doing some research. I'm an appliance and hvac tech now and I've seen control boards that react a certain way after a fault and when I looked at the service manual it's not covered. That means the manufacturer didn't see it coming. That's the same thing with the Boeing MCAS. I go into employee group blog and I told people not to go on the Max because it's buggy right after the Ethiopian Airline crash and I was scolded big time and thinks I'm just an alarmist. The majority thinks the foreign carriers pilots don't know what they are doing and didn't follow Boeing's procedure and that United's Pilots are one of the best trained in the world. I countered by saying, those four Pilots knew what they are doing and in fact countered MCAS but MCAS kept wanting to nosedive the airplane even after turning it off. I told them that Boeing put out a bulletin to follow after the Lion Air crash and the Ethiopian Airlines Pilots followed it but the MCAS kept wanting to nosedive the airplane. That's what I said after the Ethiopian Airlines crash. I knew they followed procedures. Why wouldn't they after a Lion Air incident and Boeing put out a bulletin to follow after that crash? Crew blaming, just because they're from the other part of the world, from Boeing and Americans who thinks they are the only smart people in the world are stupid and uncalled for.
Poor mans Brian Cranston. Wha?
The Smithsonian channel, has a show Air Disasters, I think its free on Hulu, I got in the habit of checking NTSB reports, while taking private pilot lessons, lots of small planes fall out of the sky, almost 1 every day, I quit after 20 hours of lessons
If pilots on the ground ran the plane with remote control, fewer people would die in the crash
Since Boeing moved to Chicago there is no honor.
The good news would be poor communication between engineers test pilots feedback (presumably) FAA oversight (or lack of due to staff shortages) all curable by adding slightly to already astronomical cost of aircraft via fees from govt to aid FAA and ability of corporations to do due diligence knowing enhanced FAA would make all airline makers do same leveling playing field, which would be reflected by slight increases in cost of tickets to ALL aircraft. The bad news, manufacturer knew they had a problem and instead of highlighting and warning everyone so they could compensate, and everything man makes requires user operation to mediate issues, right from getting blisters from the first shovel, the 'we're perfect, admit no problems, never say no, don't rock the boat, fear for your job, illegal NDA's (if it's hiding a crime its illegal) and most importantly inc quarterly profit double digits no matter what' business culture just killed again. Hate to bring in politics but GOVT IS GOOD, regulations are good, gov't CONTROL of business is good at least until people reach universal saint hood.
Have the angles incidence 'limits' been altered at all on the latest max 8's 'slow moving' stabilizer, compared to earlier builds?. Thanks!
My grandfather flew Cessna 172 and Tiger moth, spraying farm's, due to asztma he was unable to serve in WW2. Although he wasn't the accomplished nor experienced piolet as yourself? my grandfather knew his planes and as a responsible piolet, you do not overlook that kind of mistake that would risk anyones life or aircraft as a piolet you should know your aircraft. You have survived and have done what you do because you are a responsible, accountable and capable piolet. You would not, ever make those kind of mistakes as has happened in this crash. Those Boeing's are state of the art and ultermately flying Manual or automatic, they are easy aircraft's to fly and navigate that is how they are engineered. And in that cockpit there are 2 to 3 occupants pioliting. These aircraft would have been many times flown and rested before being released. These anomolies would have been simulated and corrected. I acknowledge and respect your opinion as an accomplished expert, at the end of the day a good piolet is a good piolet regardless. Glider piolet's are as good piolet's even without all the protocol of who can fly what when. Flying is about physics, you either get it or you don't, just like sailing. Why are you making excuses for these people?
Thanks so much for the excellent briefing on the 737 Max MACS issue.
Very lucid presentation, THANKS!
Boeing knew about this many years ago oh, they just chose to do nothing about it. There were meetings in which this was discussed, quite a while back, and it was more than once brought up that there was no budget for a fix. Welcome to Boeing.
So you're saying it helps if there are 3-4 (10:34) pilots to help address an aircraft suddenly doing something autonomously that makes no sense? Isn't the main question: Why is the aircraft doing this in the first place? The world's gone mad...
One model for sure he flew was the Vought F8U-2NE (F-8E) Crusader/Bu The first production F8U-2NE was delivered in September of 1962. So he had a wild era for a while with it. My older boss friend flew his photography plane out of San Jose a taildragger, I believe it was Piper's short-wing "taildragger" 4-seat PA-20 Pacer it was old and he started using it in the early 50's till 80's for sure. Arnold Del Carlo. Hole in the floor I'd shoot through. He was not very careful with specific heights around Moffett and would get the NAVY warnings odd even thousands while he tried his best to stay on his camera runs for Silicon valley developers and Tech Corp buildings. I felt a bit vulnerable being a non pilot in the back seat area/ with no seatbelt snapping away , he was born about 1924.
Mr J Brown, is there anyway you can shoot aerial of dead trees in the N Bay region through Napa etc where the timber should be stripped out, But is that timber valuable enough to get some use to break even or better. My cousin Neal Henderson is a retired kinda 83+ (Iron man contestant) still skinny & hard body cyclist and Northwest Airline pilot/ former Korean era (Marine) Navy F8U-3 pilot I believe their VA 104 was meant to be a Nuclear Weapon Dropping Squadron, since he said the made the low and up to heaven run and were to supposedly peel off as the bomb went up further then fly out of the blast area, which he said they could not do well because the bombs were potentially getting too powerful. Even at 3 miles a minute airspeed. Then just in time at early Viet Nam era he went to NW airlines and was assigned commercial transport in the Flak zones of Viet nam in and out quick. Then Flying the Alaska route he later saw the fallout from time to time from those pesky Russian Nuke bomb tests. Lots of fun flying I beleive the Vought XF8U-3 Super Crusader III ,
An AA seven three Max captain told me the other day that the Ethiopian F/O had 200 hours total flight hours. If that's true, it would explain a lot.
How is it possible the pitch-up moment caused by the engines is bigger on the MAX than on the older types, while the engine was mounted higher on the wing, suggesting that the vertical distance from the engine to the center of gravity got reduced (suggesting a smaller pitch-up moment)?
Oh! jackscrew found trim fully nose down. At best, how long for the jackscrew to rewind to near middle of it's travel?.Well too long! is my guess, 'cos those little elevators have got little or no chance and we all know the rest. Nice report.
What do you think about Boeing having sold the malfunction warning btwn the 2 AOA indicators as an OPTION?
How many incidences of pilot initiated mcas cutout have there been in the max 8?
What if you shut off the mcas when the stab is in an extreme position? The elevator may not overcome.
The Mentour Pilot channel on episode on YouTube that describes that scenario. One of the horrors of MCAS was that it could drive the stabilizer to the point where no amount of elevator input could overcome it. In such a case, with the stabilizer motor turned off, you and your co-pilot would have to manually crank the stabilizer trim frantically to restore the stabilizers to a normal and do so while continuing to fly the plane. And yes, it may be too late.
Sweet ragwing Luscombe.
Honestly, somehow,... I knew before you finished the sentence,... that the C-141 job was a highlight of extreme adventures in your life. As an armchair-pilot with 10k+ hrs in all aircraft of MS FLIGHT SIMÛLATOR, AIRCRAFT & SCENERY DESIGNER, COMBAT FLIGHT SIMÛLATOR, PC PILOT Magazine. Since MS Flight .... my addiction has eased. Everything is fine, I have my fix.
they f....d up big time
so it's a bodge job!
Thank you for a detailed description of the MCAS system. My vote that Lion and Ethiopian pilots lacked total knowledge and training of the MCAS, not aircraft, but Owners fault. I air crewed Boeing B-29's over Korea, sometimes questionable, but 4000 hrs, and here I am. TRAINING.
I've been following the information and I don't fully understand why the pilots are not trained to compensate for the Auto trim procedures. I think fault lies on both Boeing and pilots. Boeing gave too much control to the autopilot and the pilots were not trained properly.
"The MCAS is a system that automatically lowers the nose of the plane when it receives information from its external angle of attack (AOA) sensors that the aircraft is flying too slowly or steeply, and at risk of stalling. In the Lion Air crash, the MCAS forced the plane's nose down more than 24 times before it finally hit water, according to a preliminary investigation by Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee, which also found the system was responding to a faulty sensor."
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